A9 dualling

[jnty]

The biggest problem with any A9 megaplan still remains there is simply not the traffic to make it stack up.

The safety argument falls flat too when the average speed checks and raising of the HGV limit to 50 have done wonders to reduce the number of kamikaze car drivers along the single bits too.

I would rather a targeted programme of dualling the worst bits and improve enforcement on better bits where dualling isn't necessary. The real danger sites are the flat junctions and these need resolving be they single carriageway GSJs like at Newtonmore or just actual roundabouts.

As someone who uses the A9 quite frequently at holiday times I fully agree. Perth to Inverness is a much calmer experience now with the cameras and raised HGV speed limit, and delays are minor. Even in an ideal world of lots of available public money, an unpolluting vehicle fleet and minimal environmental impacts of road building, I think completing the dualling of Perth to Pitlochry, adding GSJs to replace the worst of the flat junctions, and building some sections of alternating S2+1 in the middle of the longer sections between dualled stretches should be sufficient.

Couldn't agree more with you both. The dualling project is becoming a bit of a fairytale which is sucking attention and resources away from badly needed targeted junction improvements which could be delivered much more quickly and cheaply on their own.

It's hard to remember what the A9 used to be like before average speed cameras - I think I've had one "scary" moment I can remember in all the time I've been driving it since they were introduced versus a more normal rate of once per trip prior to their introduction!

Everyone involved seems to desperate to avoid a re-examination of the safety and business case for the road as they know the case simply wouldn't stack up any more - it was tenuous even before the safety improvements and a very clear example of "a project in search of a justification". If I were a member of a local community, I think I'd have started pushing for a rethink by now though - I reckon the chances of tangible improvements actually happening near the key settlements along the route over the next five years would increase substantially if they move the focus away from giving long distance drivers room to stretch their legs round the Cairngorms and start trying to solve the actually problematic bits.

[Chris Bertram]

I don’t want to delve into politics too much (it never ends well), but there are some recent posts from people who don’t understand the differences between English politics and Scottish politics, so I’ve tried to write some fair and balanced notes.

The Scottish Green Party is nothing to do with the English and Welsh Green Party. They’re completely separate - one doesn’t answer to the other - and they actually don’t get on very well. The Scottish Greens don’t have anything about paying other countries to dispose of weapons in their manifesto.

This is in contrast to the “Scottish” Labour, Lib Dem and Conservatives, which aren’t actual parties at all and are just the UK parties operating under a different brand name. So the Scottish party can’t go against the UK party because they call the shots.

It’s also worth noting that the Scottish Parliament uses proportional representation rather than First Past The Post. This reduces the seats the winning party gets and gives more seats to the parties in second and third place. Minority governments and coalitions are the norm - there’s only ever been one Parliament that was a majority and it was incredibly narrow. A hung Parliament in Scotland doesn’t mean the same as in Westminster. It doesn’t mean a party is losing support or is on thin ice. Despite the fact the SNP have a minority right now, they have a lot of support. You can see this from the constituency results, which they win by a landslide. The Labour, Conservative and Lib Dem seats come from the regional bank, which are given to parties in second and third place.

Hope that’s fair and balanced, and also helpful.

Actually, all four Lib Dem seats in the Scottish Parliament are from constituency seats. They missed out on a single list seat quite narrowly. Whereas all the Scottish Green seats are from the regional lists, with their constituency results being rather poor. Whether this is the right balance or not I'll leave for you to judge ...

[A303Chris]

The biggest problem with any A9 megaplan still remains there is simply not the traffic to make it stack up.

The safety argument falls flat too when the average speed checks and raising of the HGV limit to 50 have done wonders to reduce the number of kamikaze car drivers along the single bits too.

For comparison, similar corridors in France that are carrying similar traffic volumes are tolled autoroutes and built to lower standards than busier routes - the A28 for example opened with narrow lanes and D1 sections over structures.

I would rather a targeted programme of dualling the worst bits and improve enforcement on better bits where dualling isn't necessary. The real danger sites are the flat junctions and these need resolving be they single carriageway GSJs like at Newtonmore or just actual roundabouts.

As you say the A28, reduces in width over the large viaducts as the traffic volume is not there.

My experiences of driving the A9 are since the HGV limit was increased to 50mph, it was a pleasant drive and i have driven weekdays and weekends. The dual sections have no cameras and the single sections travelling along at 50mph was fine.

The only junction which was dodgy was turning right from the A889 onto the A9 at Wade Bridge. This could be grade seperated.

However it did not seen bad when turning right on to the A9 here south of Aviemore, but I do not know if this was because it was a Sunday and not a weekday.

It takes about two hours to do the 110 miles from the roundabout at the end of the Perth bypass, to the roundabout in Inverness. That to me is not to bad when the flows are so low

At Dunkeld they're 18,300 AADT, Glen Garry 9,500 AADT, Dalwhinnie 9,600 AADT , 8,192 AADT at Aviemore and 7,350 AADT at Moy. All flows are 2018 ATC counts. Therefore I believe there is justification south of Pitlochry , but north of it, the flows do not warrant it.

[jnty]

Actually, all four Lib Dem seats in the Scottish Parliament are from constituency seats. They missed out on a single list seat quite narrowly. Whereas all the Scottish Green seats are from the regional lists, with their constituency results being rather poor. Whether this is the right balance or not I'll leave for you to judge ...

In my experience it seems to correlate very strongly with where your favoured party gets all their seats from. The Tories used to be very anti-proportional representation...I think they notionally still are but I haven't seen them make any attempt to get rid of it now they get 80% of their seats from the list! I've also seen lots of SNP supporters who now seem to think list seats are somehow second class now that they're the almost exclusive preserve of their opponents, forgetting that they relied on them for the first decade of the parliament's existence.

[jnty]

At Dunkeld they're 18,300 AADT, Glen Garry 9,500 AADT, Dalwhinnie 9,600 AADT , 8,192 AADT at Aviemore and 7,350 AADT at Moy. All flows are 2018 ATC counts from 2018. Therefore I believe there is justification south of Pitlochry , but north of it, the flows do not warrant it.

The theme here seems to be that dualling is worthwhile south of Pitlochry but not north. I think thats almost the reverse of the priority that seems to being actually applied, presumably because the bits south of Pitlochry are 'difficult' owing to bridge, junctions or the huge Dunkeld guddle. I think it really proves that, given current political realities, blanket dualling is the wrong approach.

[FtoE]

I use the A9 between Perth and Inverness twice a week and agree with the last few posts. Dual south of Pitlochry, grade-separate the Aviemore North & South junctions and a mile of 2+1 southbound a few miles south of Slochd.

It will take a brave politician to actually stand up and say that complete dualling is not required. “Dual the A9” is almost a shibboleth in Scotland for lots of reasons and fewer and fewer are legitimate.

Edit to add: yup, 2 hours from Inveralmond to Raigmore. Sometimes 5 minutes less, occasionally 5 minutes more, but 2 hours is reliable - summer, weekdays, weekends, daytime, night-time.

[NICK 647063]

I use the A9 between Perth and Inverness twice a week and agree with the last few posts. Dual south of Pitlochry, grade-separate the Aviemore North & South junctions and a mile of 2+1 southbound a few miles south of Slochd.

It will take a brave politician to actually stand up and say that complete dualling is not required. “Dual the A9” is almost a shibboleth in Scotland for lots of reasons and fewer and fewer are legitimate.

Edit to add: yup, 2 hours from Inveralmond to Raigmore. Sometimes 5 minutes less, occasionally 5 minutes more, but 2 hours is reliable - summer, weekdays, weekends, daytime, night-time.

I’ve never believed in the A9 dualling, as you say you need a few overtaking sections but the flows just don’t warrant it….

I don’t see how you could justify dualling the A9 when so many other roads around the UK actually need investment, dualling the A9 is a massive overkill, the same is true for the A96, I know people try to justify by saying well roads are either congested or dangerous, the A9 isn’t congested so people will say well it’s dangerous, well the solution is simple, dualling isn’t justified, as for the danger element I’m sure that’s down to risky overtaking manoeuvres, so the simple option is double white line the lot with regular overtaking sections, other options need to be considered….

You can’t justify dualling the A9 when we have roads in the UK like the A303, A64, A47, A17 and A66 to name a few that are still single carriageway.

[Fluid Dynamics]

The biggest problem with any A9 megaplan still remains there is simply not the traffic to make it stack up.

The safety argument falls flat too when the average speed checks and raising of the HGV limit to 50 have done wonders to reduce the number of kamikaze car drivers along the single bits too.

For comparison, similar corridors in France that are carrying similar traffic volumes are tolled autoroutes and built to lower standards than busier routes - the A28 for example opened with narrow lanes and D1 sections over structures.

I would rather a targeted programme of dualling the worst bits and improve enforcement on better bits where dualling isn't necessary. The real danger sites are the flat junctions and these need resolving be they single carriageway GSJs like at Newtonmore or just actual roundabouts.

I wouldn't call the A28 cheap, those two D1 viaduct are huge structures crossing significant valleys and the traffic doesn't warrant the expense of dual currently. In the past I have driven the A28 between the A13 and A11 at 8am on a Saturday morning and literally seen a handful of cars, mind you the last 2 times I have used the Alecon services they have been rammed. I am not saying its warranted on UK terms, but in France they definitely would have built in the 1990s/2000s an equivalent to the A9 as D2, as a grand project. The A28 is after all part of the autoroute d'estuaries. I am sure there are signs north of Rouen that give the distance to Bordeaux, certainly are immediately south.

[Bryn666]

The biggest problem with any A9 megaplan still remains there is simply not the traffic to make it stack up.

The safety argument falls flat too when the average speed checks and raising of the HGV limit to 50 have done wonders to reduce the number of kamikaze car drivers along the single bits too.

For comparison, similar corridors in France that are carrying similar traffic volumes are tolled autoroutes and built to lower standards than busier routes - the A28 for example opened with narrow lanes and D1 sections over structures.

I would rather a targeted programme of dualling the worst bits and improve enforcement on better bits where dualling isn't necessary. The real danger sites are the flat junctions and these need resolving be they single carriageway GSJs like at Newtonmore or just actual roundabouts.

I wouldn't call the A28 cheap, those two D1 viaduct are huge structures crossing significant valleys and the traffic doesn't warrant the expense of dual currently. In the past I have driven the A28 between the A13 and A11 at 8am on a Saturday morning and literally seen a handful of cars, mind you the last 2 times I have used the Alecon services they have been rammed. I am not saying its warranted on UK terms, but in France they definitely would have built in the 1990s/2000s an equivalent to the A9 as D2, as a grand project. The A28 is after all part of the autoroute d'estuaries. I am sure there are signs north of Rouen that give the distance to Bordeaux, certainly are immediately south.

Yes, that's the thing - the A28 in question between Alencon and Rouen is run by a toll concessionaire that runs that bit and that bit alone (Alis). Neither Cofiroute or SAPN wanted to know - and it took many years to complete (the first bit of the A28 at Alencon opened in 1994 and was a free bypass until the extension to Le Mans opened in 2001).

Now contrast with the RCEA, which is a major east-west corridor across France being built by the state - it has numerous S2 sections, and is a death trap with much more traffic than the A28. The difference? It's not got any tolls.

[haggishunter]

You can’t justify dualling the A9 when we have roads in the UK like the A303, A64, A47, A17 and A66 to name a few that are still single carriageway.

Ultimately the list of A numbers you've given are irrelevant - whether the A9 is dualled or not does not need to be justified against potential English road schemes and whether the A9 or A96 dualling progresses is not in the gift of HM Government unless they want a major constitutional rammy.

Since devolution, a huge amount has been spent on the central belt motorway network completion, plus the Aberdeen Western Peripheral Road - things that should have been done in most cases years or decades before devolution, but wouldn't have happened without devolution.

So there is an argument for other parts to now see considerable transport enhancements. The obsession with historical traffic flows somewhat misses the point, there has always seemed like a degree of nation building with the A9 and A96 dualling, giving dual carriageway / motorway connections between all 7 cities. Ultimately if you never invest in the infrastructure, then you'll never change the current living and travel patterns, the current economic opportunities or lack of and their existing geographic spread.

Though I use the A9 considerably more often, after the Moy A9 section where preliminary work is underway, I would however prefer to see the A96 Inverness to Auldearn project under construction before more A9 schemes. Removing the constraint prohibiting WS2+1 joining dual carriageways and allowing GSJs on WS2+1 and I'd be more open to perhaps not the full lengths being dualled, particularly the A96 where the existing Fochabers / Mosstodloch bypasses could be retained, but would there actually be that much saving in alternating WS2+1 vs D2?

[Stravaiger]

Haggishunter- couldn't agree more! My thoughts exactly!
( First commonsense I've read on this forum for a long long time)

[Peter Freeman]

The obsession with historical traffic flows somewhat misses the point, there has always seemed like a degree of nation building with the A9 and A96 dualling, giving dual carriageway / motorway connections between all 7 cities.

This is the method of allocating road funds used in tin-pot non-democracies, and in mega-rich middle-eastern countries with more money than sense. 'Nation building'? More like impressive show-pieces for the gullible, but white elephants and waste of resources to the more observant.

'Historical traffic flows', and predictions based upon them, are the correct criteria.

[jnty]

The obsession with historical traffic flows somewhat misses the point, there has always seemed like a degree of nation building with the A9 and A96 dualling, giving dual carriageway / motorway connections between all 7 cities.

This is the method of allocating road funds used in tin-pot non-democracies, and in mega-rich middle-eastern countries with more money than sense. 'Nation building'? More like impressive show-pieces for the gullible, but white elephants and waste of resources to the more observant.

'Historical traffic flows', and predictions based upon them, are the correct criteria.

Indeed - the journey time improvements from full dualling are not really game-changing, except perhaps at peak times. The case was always built on safety/frustration beyond connectivity.

What would be really gamechanging would be huge investment in the railways north of the central belt to boost capacity, frequencies and deliver journey times well below achievable by cars even if the existing roads were fully upgraded. This would genuinely "bring the cities closer together" as has happened with Edinburgh and Glasgow, taking a lot of business trips and some commuting and freight off the A9, and therefore improving peak time journey stability for long distance, tourist and rural journeys. I struggle to see how the case can be made for a road to be fully dualled when the adjacent railway which fulfils the same purpose is still largely single track!

[Duncan macknight]

While I welcome the Full A9 Dualling programme, I do feel it’s far too strong a standard given what currently exists along the route, partiality between Blair Atholl & Kingussie.

When you think of all the parallel roads, the restricting of access to these small roads and joining them onto a Big GS junction, it looks far too over the top.
When the dual carriageway was extended at Crubenmore, an At Grade junction was installed there for Etteridge(?) farm and I am yet to see a horrific smash at that junction because it’s not Grade separated.

If it’s an access that used by Farmer Bob to turn onto the road from his private road, then a flat tuning area will be fine.

If it’s a Right turn where lorries, locals, tourists, old ladies and more use the junction then a GS junction is very much justified.

[Burns]

Let's at least get the road dualled from Perth to Blair Atholl before we all demand an immediate halt. I need to be able to skeen campervans and tourists with ease and the dualling of the busy bit will help me massively.

[Herned]

This is the method of allocating road funds used in tin-pot non-democracies, and in mega-rich middle-eastern countries with more money than sense. 'Nation building'? More like impressive show-pieces for the gullible, but white elephants and waste of resources to the more observant.

Like the USA? The Interstate Highway system has/had a specific goal of connecting all towns above 50k. Spain and France have had similar criteria - connecting provincial centres to the network being the goal. Connecting regions by decent infrastructure is a valid goal in my opinion

[FtoE]

The A9 has had considerable enhancements - it was completely rebuilt from Dunblane to Dornoch. It could be said that the improvements to the (very much) busier central belt roads are simply playing catch-up. And let’s not forget there is no complete direct dual carriageway or motorway to the south of Edinburgh.
If you want ‘nation building’ then the billions projected to be spent on the A9 and A96 could transform hundreds of miles of roads in other parts of Scotland. The A7, A75, A77, A82, A83, A68. Maybe then the whole country would feel connected and see some of the economic uplift that rebuilding the A9 gave Inverness (whose population has virtually doubled since) and the Inner Moray Firth.

[Burns]

If you want ‘nation building’ then the billions projected to be spent on the A9 and A96 could transform hundreds of miles of roads in other parts of Scotland. The A7, A75, A77, A82, A83, A68. Maybe then the whole country would feel connected and see some of the economic uplift that rebuilding the A9 gave Inverness (whose population has virtually doubled since) and the Inner Moray Firth.

If the so-called billions actually translated to on the ground improvements then maybe improvements elsewhere could be argued for but so far, we've seen about 10 miles of A9 dualled since the project was announced. That's hardly value for money progress. The UK's can kicking policy wins once again.

[haggishunter]

On the issue of the A82 - I’ve heard Tarbet to Inverarnan is heading towards half a billion for 10 miles, so it’s not as if the A82 is out of the picture. If that gets built, then there isn’t actually much wrong with the A82 from Onich south, some crawler lanes on the climbs onto Rannoch Moor would be good though.

I have wondered what the cost of a new high quality link road from around Ralia to the A86 at Laggan would be compared to improving either the A86 North of there or the A82 in the Great Glen to provide better East / West connectivity across the central Highlands?

[Nwallace]

You can’t justify dualling the A9 when we have roads in the UK like the A303, A64, A47, A17 and A66 to name a few that are still single carriageway.

Um...
Erm...
Nah I won't.



Oh Haggis Hunter did it, phew.


The A9s biggest problem has been beurocratic process, a lot of which is needed in any road project.
The way the UK in general both politically, press wise and a good number of posts here when big projects are happening is an embarrassment.

The only thing that will long term stop A9 dualling being completed is the death of road traffic.
Politicians were being mauled for saying it wasn't needed long ago, almost from when the road was upgraded to the current standard.
As with the A92 between Dundee and arbroath the nominal extra 10mph the dual carriageway gives is nothing like the reality, Inveralmond to the pass of Birnam goes so quickly now its unbelievable.

As for any political gain the project gives the SNP, its been their home turf for years.

Theres next to no controversy about it here, the slowness of the A96 upgrade is, and the A82 is slowly being wound up to be the next big problem using the same strategy of the safety record.

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk