A9 dualling

[clc]

Whether it is Lib Dems or Greens signing off the budget I think it will have to be much more as part of a delayed programme that splits investment between Road and Rail on the A9 corridor.

An investment programme of:
Inverkeithing - Perth new rail line on the M90 corridor
Newtonmore - Kincraig HML double track
Culloden - Moy HML double track
Perth station remodelling
Perth - Inverness electrification.

Alongside the A9 dualling that's probably an extra £2Bn and would effectively replace the A96 dualling east of Elgin in the capital programme up to 2030 with no net cost increase.

I could see that sort of programme being agreed by either Greens or Lib Dems.

I expect the Lib Dems will say independence must be taken off the table before they’ll agree to support the SNP’s budget. As that’s not going to happen any deal will have to be with the Greens I think. If a transport corridor type deal is agreed I don’t imagine the Greens would agree to construction starting on the A9 ahead of the rail projects and as these are a long way off being shovel ready it would delay the programme considerably. I suppose in that scenario Transport Scotland could bring forward all those smaller road schemes which have been on hold for the last few years.

[Berk]

Anyway, getting the legals done now doesn’t prevent the schemes being progressed in a longer timeframe. Even if you possibly need to redraft/reconsult on Environmental Impact Statements.

[Altnabreac]

That was before the climate emergency declaration though which has been a big game changer. I don't even remember the Greens shouting too loudly about A9/A96 back then it before then and indeed they approved a budget which included Luncarty to Pass of Birnam.

Agreed, though Lib Dem strongholds in Highlands would probably be more in favour of A9 investment than Green voters in general. A96 more marginal to Lib Dem political priorities.

Whether it is Lib Dems or Greens signing off the budget I think it will have to be much more as part of a delayed programme that splits investment between Road and Rail on the A9 corridor.

An investment programme of:
Inverkeithing - Perth new rail line on the M90 corridor
Newtonmore - Kincraig HML double track
Culloden - Moy HML double track
Perth station remodelling
Perth - Inverness electrification.

Alongside the A9 dualling that's probably an extra £2Bn and would effectively replace the A96 dualling east of Elgin in the capital programme up to 2030 with no net cost increase.

I could see that sort of programme being agreed by either Greens or Lib Dems.

Ah so A9 + rail get priority over A96? Thats not so bad actually as the A9 is the main route into the highlands after all. Thats if they sign such a plan off.

That’s what I would do if I were trying to negotiate a deal. A joint package of road and rail improvements funded by delaying the whole completion date until 2030.

We all know 2025 is extremely challenging now for A9 dualling given the number of schemes that would need to be in construction simultaneously so it helps explain the delays as well.

And while the Aberdeen - Inverness rail corridor has seen some significant investment the Highland Mainline Rail improvements have been fairly marginal.

I don’t think HML needs full doubling but some extra double track dynamic loops would definitely help, as would electrification.

Newtonmore to Kincraig seems the perfect section to start with. Start the double track section just after the Spey crossing outside Newtonmore, 2nd platform at Newtonmore and then links the two passing loops of Kingussie and Kincraig.

No major structure issues and replacing two loops with a long dynamic loop section is much more flexible for timetabling.

[DaStreetsweep]

Agreed, though Lib Dem strongholds in Highlands would probably be more in favour of A9 investment than Green voters in general. A96 more marginal to Lib Dem political priorities.

Whether it is Lib Dems or Greens signing off the budget I think it will have to be much more as part of a delayed programme that splits investment between Road and Rail on the A9 corridor.

An investment programme of:
Inverkeithing - Perth new rail line on the M90 corridor
Newtonmore - Kincraig HML double track
Culloden - Moy HML double track
Perth station remodelling
Perth - Inverness electrification.

Alongside the A9 dualling that's probably an extra £2Bn and would effectively replace the A96 dualling east of Elgin in the capital programme up to 2030 with no net cost increase.

I could see that sort of programme being agreed by either Greens or Lib Dems.

Ah so A9 + rail get priority over A96? Thats not so bad actually as the A9 is the main route into the highlands after all. Thats if they sign such a plan off.

That’s what I would do if I were trying to negotiate a deal. A joint package of road and rail improvements funded by delaying the whole completion date until 2030.

We all know 2025 is extremely challenging now for A9 dualling given the number of schemes that would need to be in construction simultaneously so it helps explain the delays as well.

And while the Aberdeen - Inverness rail corridor has seen some significant investment the Highland Mainline Rail improvements have been fairly marginal.

I don’t think HML needs full doubling but some extra double track dynamic loops would definitely help, as would electrification.

Newtonmore to Kincraig seems the perfect section to start with. Start the double track section just after the Spey crossing outside Newtonmore, 2nd platform at Newtonmore and then links the two passing loops of Kingussie and Kincraig.

No major structure issues and replacing two loops with a long dynamic loop section is much more flexible for timetabling.

If the Government were (hopefully) to upgrade the HML with double track between Culloden and Moy, and also between Newtonmore to Kincraig etc, how much would each of these projects likely cost.

[A9Dan]

https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,inve ... _14566.htm

The SNP are still making the case for significant investment in roads in addition to rail. The budget negotiations are going to be very interesting next year.

[clc]

https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,inve ... _14566.htm

The SNP are still making the case for significant investment in roads in addition to rail. The budget negotiations are going to be very interesting next year.

I see Fergus Ewing is using improved safety as justification for dualling but does the evidence back that up? Whenever I drive the A9 I get the sense that the real danger spots are the at grade crossings. You could close the central gaps for a fraction of the cost of full dualling.

[Nwallace]

https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,inve ... _14566.htm

The SNP are still making the case for significant investment in roads in addition to rail. The budget negotiations are going to be very interesting next year.

I see Fergus Ewing is using improved safety as justification for dualling but does the evidence back that up? Whenever I drive the A9 I get the sense that the real danger spots are the at grade crossings. You could close the central gaps for a fraction of the cost of full dualling.

I've seen more near misses from dodgy overtakes than misjudgement on the at grade crossings. But that's equally anecdotal.

His primary argument is actually that regardless of power source the nature of the Highlands means personal transport is an necessity and isn't going to reduce much on the green arguments.

The result of that is that the substandard roads still need upgraded.


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[Altnabreac]

Ah so A9 + rail get priority over A96? Thats not so bad actually as the A9 is the main route into the highlands after all. Thats if they sign such a plan off.

That’s what I would do if I were trying to negotiate a deal. A joint package of road and rail improvements funded by delaying the whole completion date until 2030.

We all know 2025 is extremely challenging now for A9 dualling given the number of schemes that would need to be in construction simultaneously so it helps explain the delays as well.

And while the Aberdeen - Inverness rail corridor has seen some significant investment the Highland Mainline Rail improvements have been fairly marginal.

I don’t think HML needs full doubling but some extra double track dynamic loops would definitely help, as would electrification.

Newtonmore to Kincraig seems the perfect section to start with. Start the double track section just after the Spey crossing outside Newtonmore, 2nd platform at Newtonmore and then links the two passing loops of Kingussie and Kincraig.

No major structure issues and replacing two loops with a long dynamic loop section is much more flexible for timetabling.

If the Government were (hopefully) to upgrade the HML with double track between Culloden and Moy, and also between Newtonmore to Kincraig etc, how much would each of these projects likely cost.

The Aberdeen to Inverness scheme is coming in just over £300m, it has a 16 mile redoubling section as well as new station, resignalling, renewals, level crossing improvements etc.

So applying that to HML I’d expect a scheme of similar scale to deliver each of those redoubling sections say £200m each with a further £100m for other enhancements (resignalling Dunkeld for example). So maybe £500m as a starting point and then electrification to follow in a second phase of another £500m or so.

[Berk]

Surely allowing for more redoubling is higher priority than electrification?? Ideally you’d go for both, but if push comes to shove...

I believe the HML suffers from more cancellations than any other line in Britain. If it snows, don’t travel basically.

[Nwallace]

Surely allowing for more redoubling is higher priority than electrification?? Ideally you’d go for both, but if push comes to shove...

I believe the HML suffers from more cancellations than any other line in Britain. If it snows, don’t travel basically.

The HML crosses two high passes in Slochd and Drummochter. So does the A9 if it wasn't for the "snow roads" the A9 would probably be one of the most closed roads too.



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[Duncan macknight]

Surely allowing for more redoubling is higher priority than electrification?? Ideally you’d go for both, but if push comes to shove...

I believe the HML suffers from more cancellations than any other line in Britain. If it snows, don’t travel basically.

The HML crosses two high passes in Slochd and Drummochter. So does the A9 if it wasn't for the "snow roads" the A9 would probably be one of the most closed roads too.
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Fun fact
Drumochter summit is the Highest point on the UK rail network

[Nwallace]

Surely allowing for more redoubling is higher priority than electrification?? Ideally you’d go for both, but if push comes to shove...

I believe the HML suffers from more cancellations than any other line in Britain. If it snows, don’t travel basically.

The HML crosses two high passes in Slochd and Drummochter. So does the A9 if it wasn't for the "snow roads" the A9 would probably be one of the most closed roads too.
Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

Fun fact
Drumochter summit is the Highest point on the UK rail network

But Slochd must be the harder climb, I was on a 170 unit with a sole working engine, we got up drummochter at a crawl it were refused permission to climb Slochd like that.
The solution was to wait for the last train of the day to get a couple of extra engines for the shove.

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[Potholes ate my car]

I'm a member of the Scottish Greens, and very concerned about the climate emergency, but I also realise that public transport just isn't an option in most parts of the Highlands. The rail infrastructure should absolutely be improved, so that journeys between the central belt and Inverness, and other places, can move from car to train. If we could take all the freight that currently goes up and down the A9 and move it onto trains, then that would be brilliant. But realistically there will never be the capacity on the railway to do that, so the A9 needs to be improved. It's not great from an environmental point of view but sometimes you just need to be pragmatic.

[Berk]

Scotland is very much like Ireland or New Zealand. A lot of the population spread out very thinly.

That makes it hard to provide public transport for people living in country areas, remote farms and so on.

Reducing CO2 emissions just ain’t gonna happen. Unless you can go electric, of course.

[owen b]

I'm a member of the Scottish Greens, and very concerned about the climate emergency, but I also realise that public transport just isn't an option in most parts of the Highlands. The rail infrastructure should absolutely be improved, so that journeys between the central belt and Inverness, and other places, can move from car to train. If we could take all the freight that currently goes up and down the A9 and move it onto trains, then that would be brilliant. But realistically there will never be the capacity on the railway to do that, so the A9 needs to be improved. It's not great from an environmental point of view but sometimes you just need to be pragmatic.

I have mixed feelings about the A9 dualling project for various reasons. My experience is that Perth to Pitlochry is generally busy and has a decent case for more capacity, some junctions could be improved for safety reasons, and some extra overtaking lanes could be added on the longer single sections. Dualling the whole lot seems like overkill to me, being very expensive, not necessary for capacity, and not environmentally friendly.

I'm rather surprised to read a Green party member advocating road improvements to be honest, I thought that was anathema.

[clc]

I have mixed feelings about the A9 dualling project for various reasons. My experience is that Perth to Pitlochry is generally busy and has a decent case for more capacity, some junctions could be improved for safety reasons, and some extra overtaking lanes could be added on the longer single sections. Dualling the whole lot seems like overkill to me, being very expensive, not necessary for capacity, and not environmentally friendly.

I tend to agree. Dualling only where capacity is needed, adding a few more WS2+1 sections and upgrading the most dangerous junctions would save a couple of £billion which could then be spent on other urgently needed road schemes such as Dundee bypass; dualling/grade separation around Ayr; and grade separating Kier, Broxden and Inveralmond roundabouts.

[Berk]

That really sounds like “it’s OK” to spend money in the Central Belt, but not in the Highlands.

I'm sure we’re all aware how much higher delivery charges are in the (ex) Highland Region. But surely that’s down to a number of factors, including poorer, and slower road links.

If you have a more reliable road network, it will actually make easier for companies to service communities along the way. As well as making it safer for all road passengers.

[Potholes ate my car]

I'm rather surprised to read a Green party member advocating road improvements to be honest, I thought that was anathema.

I am going against the party line here, yes. But we do need roads. I'm not in favour of mass new road building, but appreciate the need to make improvements where the infrastructure is already in place. The Highlands can be pretty isolated from the rest of Scotland, and without the A9 it would be even more so.

Saying that, from a driver's point of view, in my opinion the biggest improvement made to the A9 in recent years hasn't involved any new building at all - the 50 limit for lorries has made it much less of an inconvenience when you find yourself behind one.

[owen b]

from a driver's point of view, in my opinion the biggest improvement made to the A9 in recent years hasn't involved any new building at all - the 50 limit for lorries has made it much less of an inconvenience when you find yourself behind one.

I agree with you, allied to the average speed cameras. The 50 limit for lorries and the cameras together have in my experience greatly reduced kamikaze overtaking, increased average traffic speeds and made the driving experience rather more pleasant. Much more cost effective than spending £3 billion on dualling the whole lot.

[clc]

That really sounds like “it’s OK” to spend money in the Central Belt, but not in the Highlands.

I'm sure we’re all aware how much higher delivery charges are in the (ex) Highland Region. But surely that’s down to a number of factors, including poorer, and slower road links.

If you have a more reliable road network, it will actually make easier for companies to service communities along the way. As well as making it safer for all road passengers.

I’m not against investment in the north of Scotland I just think there are better ways to spend scarce resources than dualling the A9 north of Pitlochry. For example, the Scottish Govt could trunk the A890 and build the Stromeferry Bypass and upgrade Balnacra to Lair thereby providing a great alternative to the A82. It could also allocate Highland Council extra funding to upgrade some of the busier single track routes - I was on holiday in Skye during the summer and the A855 from Uig to Staffin was unfit for the volume of traffic on it (the scenery was beautiful though). Dualling from Inverness to east of Nairn, Elgin Bypass and upgrading the A82 would also be on my list of top priorities.