A9 dualling

[Berk]

The idea that somebody might ask for a roundabout because they are vindictive is ludicrous. "You can have your fast road but I'll have the final laugh".

More likely they have some-sort of irrational fear of concrete jungles amd Mary told Pete that Shelley told Miriam that that's what's going to be built here.

Not only that, though. It’s protecting someone’s blessed right to “turn right because they’ve always been able to”.

I’ve got news for people. When you have a dual carriageway, you can’t do that any more. The whole point is to make the road safer - which includes aligning movements so that access is made from dedicated slips - rather than against oncoming traffic.

But oh no, “must be able to turn right here, because I’ve always done so...”

That is entitlement syndrome.

[Helvellyn]

Slightly off topic, but there are significant (£100s of Millions) of tunnels on HS2 which are not required for any engineering reason, but simply there to keep the locals happy. This actually means that there isn't enough money to put a tunnel into Sheffield so it has to use the existing line. I guess many roads/railways get e.g. A3 Hindhead, potentially Stonehenge and post swampy it's the easier option for the Transport Secretary, but it does mean we get fewer roads/railways for the available budget.

That's what happens if you start building things that are unpleasant enough for no-one to want them anywhere near them. You can always get more if you go cheaper and nastier.

[Helvellyn]

I’ve got news for people. When you have a dual carriageway, you can’t do that any more. The whole point is to make the road safer - which includes aligning movements so that access is made from dedicated slips - rather than against oncoming traffic.

But oh no, “must be able to turn right here, because I’ve always done so...”

That is entitlement syndrome.

"Entitlement syndrome" to get worked up about having a legal right of way and access removed? It's a perfectly valid, legitimate complaint. You can argue that removing it is the lesser evil and keeping it would simply be impractical but once again you're just sneering at anything that might threaten your whizzy new road. I really do find people pushing development an unpleasant lot on the whole who help to create an unpleasant world.

[Euan]

Does all of Dunkeld want a roundabout or is it just one vocal numbnut? What justifiable reason is there for the locals not wanting grade separation? Are they just vindictive delay merchants that take pleasure in forcing people to slow to a stop and waste fuel in 1st gear just so that they can smugly go round the roundabout in front of you?

A GSJ would have involved a dumbbell interchange, or at least some variant of one that would have had two roundabouts. One of the roundabouts would have been built in Dunkeld and may well have had some vocal objectors. It was to be something like this:

https://www.transport.gov.scot/media/39 ... nction.pdf

There is quite a steep gradient (19%) from the Dunkeld roundabout, but the road doesn't appear to be in a tunnel past Dunkeld Station, so if they bury the road past the station it would be lower and that problem would disappear.

What I was thinking was the fact that one of the roundabouts would be located in Dunkeld (sorry, Little Dunkeld) which probably would have attracted highly localised and small number of "loud" objections. I honestly don't think the small roundabout in the village would be detrimental to anybody, not even the objectors. If that's how they feel about a small side roundabout, how will they feel once one of the most pivotal road corridors in Scotland is being brought to a halt right in front of them?

[Berk]

I’ve got news for people. When you have a dual carriageway, you can’t do that any more. The whole point is to make the road safer - which includes aligning movements so that access is made from dedicated slips - rather than against oncoming traffic.

But oh no, “must be able to turn right here, because I’ve always done so...”

That is entitlement syndrome.

"Entitlement syndrome" to get worked up about having a legal right of way and access removed? It's a perfectly valid, legitimate complaint. You can argue that removing it is the lesser evil and keeping it would simply be impractical but once again you're just sneering at anything that might threaten your whizzy new road. I really do find people pushing development an unpleasant lot on the whole who help to create an unpleasant world.

So why don’t motorways have roundabouts on the mainline then?? And undivided carriageways??

Unlimited access and improving highway capacity and safety are mutually exclusive. But unfortunately some people just have to be able to turn right where they want to...

[Euan]

I’ve got news for people. When you have a dual carriageway, you can’t do that any more. The whole point is to make the road safer - which includes aligning movements so that access is made from dedicated slips - rather than against oncoming traffic.

But oh no, “must be able to turn right here, because I’ve always done so...”

That is entitlement syndrome.

"Entitlement syndrome" to get worked up about having a legal right of way and access removed? It's a perfectly valid, legitimate complaint. You can argue that removing it is the lesser evil and keeping it would simply be impractical but once again you're just sneering at anything that might threaten your whizzy new road. I really do find people pushing development an unpleasant lot on the whole who help to create an unpleasant world.

So why don’t motorways have roundabouts on the mainline then?? And undivided carriageways??

Unlimited access and improving highway capacity and safety are mutually exclusive. But unfortunately some people just have to be able to turn right where they want to...

Well, technically it wouldn't be a dual carriageway if the carriageways were not divided - and then there wouldn't even be a "dualled" A9 by the end of the A9 Dualling project.

The Newbridge junction near Edinburgh must have been one of the last examples of an at-grade roundabout being placed on a mainline motorway. Although it was the M8 and M9 that were opposite each other on the roundabout, it was in effect still a single motorway being interrupted since this was before the M8 reached Edinburgh properly.

[Helvellyn]

So why don’t motorways have roundabouts on the mainline then?? And undivided carriageways??

Unlimited access and improving highway capacity and safety are mutually exclusive. But unfortunately some people just have to be able to turn right where they want to...

Because motorways are in addition to existing roads (where they're upgrades of existing routes a general purpose alternative has to be provided). You're talking about removing well used legal rights of way and refusing to accept that doing so is a valid concern, even if the argument does come down in favour of removing them. "You've got to be treated with contempt and trampled on for the greater good" is not a particularly persuasive argument.

Unfortunately some people just have to rush around everywhere and couldn't care less about anything in between where they're rushing to and from

[Burns]

I'm sure the original plans had a grade separated junction at Dunkeld. The roundabout is less about not losing an existing right of way and more about not having part of the new junction encroaching the town. I can sympathise with their concern but the current space profile for the at-grade junction that currently exists is large and I'm struggling to see why a compromise solution where we get both a dualled A9 and full access grade separated junction at the A822/A923 can't be reached.

[Helvellyn]

I'm sure the original plans had a grade separated junction at Dunkeld. The roundabout is less about not losing an existing right of way and more about not having part of the new junction encroaching the town. I can sympathise with their concern but the current space profile for the at-grade junction that currently exists is large and I'm struggling to see why a compromise solution where we get both a dualled A9 and full access grade separated junction at the A822/A923 can't be reached.

That's all fair enough.

The encroachment argument isn't invalid either - you don't have to look far to find somewhere made rather more unpleasant to be by improvements, and as I said earlier this general degredation of our surroundings is a major issue that sadly gets dismissed out of hand by far too many people, particularly those who refuse to look beyond anything they can easily measure. I've a lot of sympathy for people on the receiving end of that. This doesn't necessarily mean that if forced to choose I'd choose with them - the general space and geography would suggest that at GSJ could be built there without much impact, but the sneering dismissal of such concerns from some people really turns my stomach (and I really don't want to live in the world they seem to want to build).

[A9NWIL]

So why don’t motorways have roundabouts on the mainline then?? And undivided carriageways??

Unlimited access and improving highway capacity and safety are mutually exclusive. But unfortunately some people just have to be able to turn right where they want to...

Because motorways are in addition to existing roads (where they're upgrades of existing routes a general purpose alternative has to be provided). You're talking about removing well used legal rights of way and refusing to accept that doing so is a valid concern, even if the argument does come down in favour of removing them. "You've got to be treated with contempt and trampled on for the greater good" is not a particularly persuasive argument.

Unfortunately some people just have to rush around everywhere and couldn't care less about anything in between where they're rushing to and from

So tell me why a diamond junction couldnt have been provided? That would provide a sort of right turn off the minor road that would go over or under the A9. People from the village would be able to turn right onto the sliproad and join the A9 nicely!

[Helvellyn]

So tell me why a diamond junction couldnt have been provided? That would provide a sort of right turn off the minor road that would go over or under the A9. People from the village would be able to turn right onto the sliproad and join the A9 nicely!

See above - I'm expressing sympathy with the objections and dislike of those opposing them, not necessarily agreeing with them!

[Chris5156]

The idea that somebody might ask for a roundabout because they are vindictive is ludicrous. "You can have your fast road but I'll have the final laugh".

More likely they have some-sort of irrational fear of concrete jungles amd Mary told Pete that Shelley told Miriam that that's what's going to be built here.

Not only that, though. It’s protecting someone’s blessed right to “turn right because they’ve always been able to”.

I’ve got news for people. When you have a dual carriageway, you can’t do that any more. The whole point is to make the road safer - which includes aligning movements so that access is made from dedicated slips - rather than against oncoming traffic.

But oh no, “must be able to turn right here, because I’ve always done so...”

Is "turning right because they've always been able to" an actual reason for the roundabout being suggested at Dunkeld? Has that reason actually come out of the collaborative exercise that created it? I ask because a grade separated junction would still allow you to turn right at that location, just not as directly as at present - the same as a roundabout.

[Berk]

In my defence, I don’t know. But expressway/motorway schemes do have a habit of removing junctions, substituting the next one up or down. Or moving them a little, increasing the distance.

Witness the A1 prior to conversion, and its junctions with the A6055 now. Quite long distances between. More than 3 miles is a little excessive - compared with what was there previously.

Judging by the A9 screenshots linked above, I don’t think the junction will dominate as much as is claimed, even in the autumn and winter months.

[Herned]

The roundabout in the fly-through videos is enormous. It looks like you could build a dumbbell junction in the middle of it without impacting the traffic much... very clever

[Berk]

Does that mean if built, it can be GSJ’d later?? Sounds like a win then.

[Euan]

Does that mean if built, it can be GSJ’d later?? Sounds like a win then.

It could be a win, but it might take a while depending on how long it takes before it becomes clear that a GSJ is better for the A9 at Dunkeld. The roundabout is certainly large enough for it to happen though.

[Berk]

It will be like Catthorpe (in terms of being a costly fix, rather than a simple build job). I’m sure other projects have been built in this way (in phases, after much faffing and deliberation).

But if we get there in the end, we’ll get there, doesn’t matter how.

Maybe after a few locals have passed on...

I’m sure the SNP will present the grade separation project as “good for Scottish jobs”.

[Herned]

Does that mean if built, it can be GSJ’d later?? Sounds like a win then.

No idea for sure, but the roundabout is bigger than any I can remember seeing on any recent scheme, if it is correctly modelled on the videos. I'm sure someone professional (Bryn possibly) said that roundabouts had to be round according to the manual, but this one definitely isn't

[KeithW]

Slightly off topic, but there are significant (£100s of Millions) of tunnels on HS2 which are not required for any engineering reason, but simply there to keep the locals happy. This actually means that there isn't enough money to put a tunnel into Sheffield so it has to use the existing line. I guess many roads/railways get e.g. A3 Hindhead, potentially Stonehenge and post swampy it's the easier option for the Transport Secretary, but it does mean we get fewer roads/railways for the available budget.

Keeping protests down to a manageable level IS an engineering reason, without it engineers don't get to build anything. This is nothing new, George Stephenson and Thomas Telford had to deal with it. In fact not taking into account opposition cost Telford the opportunity to build the new London Bridge. His design required the demolition of nearby properties, the design by Rennie did not. In Sheffield the city council is all in favour of HS2 coming in to the station so it sounds to me as if they got it right

[David D Miller]

Planning approval has been granted for replacement roadside services at the new A9 Tomatin junction. House of Bruar getting some competition, at last!
https://www.scottishconstructionnow.com ... n-junction

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