A9 dualling

[GrahameCase]

Make everything lilo only to improve safety and just leave them to it, they’ll soon be crying for a dual carriageway with GSJ sobthey can turn right

[Berk]

They Could just leave Dunkeld and it might become a A9 Hindhead Bowl like the A3 was for many years.

Thinking about it thou if it was left, considering traffic flows, it wouldn’t be much of an issue as the road would have the same alignment as the dual carriageway but it would be very odd.

Still hate that damn roundabout they’re proposing.

I think they should let them have it. It’s so easy to grade separate it, they just need to incorporate amended designs and add that as a bolt-on option in the reporting stage.

[Euan]

Transport scotland have just published a video showing proposed construction of Pass of Birnham to Tay Crossing cut and cover tunnel.

https://youtu.be/ne_sHUNOs2I

Looks like this might dissuade any community members when they realise how much disruption and noise it’ll cause

The community event panels talked a lot about the need for years of noisy piling in that option and how it could be unpopular with the neighbouring properties.

But would it be as unpopular as living with the noise and the dangers of a busy road permanently rather than just four and a half years? It will no doubt be a lengthy inconvenience for the locals while all of the realignments are being configured, but it will be worthwhile both for them and A9 drivers.

[Glen]

Seriously though, I'm disappointed to see the roundabout is still being considered

But it isn't really. The community option for the tunnel and roundabout are being included in the shortlist, alongside the sensible options, so they can pretend to be taking on board the community's concerns and suggestions.

This might as well say "nice idea, but no".

[orudge]

The tunnel would also end up costing well over a billion quid - it’s just not going to happen.

[haggishunter]

Looking at the tunnel phasing animation, it would appear that the process could be significantly simplified by closure of the A9 - that would mean a faster build at less cost. Perhaps a compromise where the community can have a shorter tunnel, but they have to accept the A9 being routed through Birnam with Perth Road made a clearway throughout the construction process. Indeed that might even focus minds on other options, or perhaps enough of the community would accept short term substantial disruption for the longer term gain?

Though the notion of a tunnel or this section costing £1/2 billion + was going around long before the co-creative process. I recall in quite the early stages of the dualling planning seeing something about how this section could swallow a huge part of the budget and would mean cheaper solutions would be needed elsewhere on the route.

Maybe time to throw the work done on this section in the bin and go back to the drawing board entirely and find an offline route, possibly even North of Dunkeld joining the existing alignment north of the existing Tay Crossing?

[Euan]

Looking at the tunnel phasing animation, it would appear that the process could be significantly simplified by closure of the A9 - that would mean a faster build at less cost. Perhaps a compromise where the community can have a shorter tunnel, but they have to accept the A9 being routed through Birnam with Perth Road made a clearway throughout the construction process. Indeed that might even focus minds on other options, or perhaps enough of the community would accept short term substantial disruption for the longer term gain?

Bridge Street in Dunkeld would potentially need to become clearway as well in order to be able to accommodate all of the HGV traffic which uses the A9, otherwise there would be a very limited amount of space for passing. A contraflow system on an A9 diversion through Birnam and Dunkeld would be problematic as well with the lack of a suitable alternative route for traffic going the other way.

[Berk]

But such arrangements are quite usual for short-term construction purposes. The alternative would be far worse...

[Euan]

Maybe time to throw the work done on this section in the bin and go back to the drawing board entirely and find an offline route, possibly even North of Dunkeld joining the existing alignment north of the existing Tay Crossing?

It would be really tricky for the road to try and pass to the north of Dunkeld. A tunnel through the hill would probably be required on the approach to the Tay Crossing at the B898 junction, alternatively a very long and wide viaduct passing over the trees.

[Euan]

But such arrangements are quite usual for short-term construction purposes. The alternative would be far worse...

But it would hardly be short-term construction work to completely shut the A9 at Dunkeld with the view of dualling it on-line, it would still take a couple of years at least regardless of the complexity of the work.

[Glen]

The long tunnel clearly isn't going to happen, just as the roundabout isn't.
It would be prohibitively expensive, not just to build, but to operate and maintain.

It would also be below standard if the forward visibility is reduced so as to require at reduced speed line.

The short cut and cover option to accommodate the railway station access is still a realistic consideration, though.

[Berk]

But such arrangements are quite usual for short-term construction purposes. The alternative would be far worse...

But it would hardly be short-term construction work to completely shut the A9 at Dunkeld with the view of dualling it on-line, it would still take a couple of years at least regardless of the complexity of the work.

It’s short-term in the sense it’s not permanent.

And like I say, similar arrangements have been made elsewhere (and reversed later).

[B9127]

Dunkeld population 1330, Bankfoot 1136 ,Luncarty 1236. So Dunkeld wants special attention, IMHO Dunkeld is a bit like St Andrews insofar there is a core population who think the town is so important that the modern world should not impinge on their rural idyll. Dunkeld is not the destination it was in the 50's and 60's so it should only merit the same type of access as the other two towns south of it. Re the main line dualling past the station that is an engineering problem to be solved.

[Berk]

What are the real issues here?? The fact that Little Dunkeld and Birnam have been built up way too close to the A9??

And that we’re talking about upgrading a road in a valley next to a railway line and a chain of hills.

But what are the real access issues here, or are they just imaginary ones??

[SouthWest Philip]

If one of the issues is the railway station being cut off from the town by the the A9, would it be possible to swap the road and railway alignment around?

[Berk]

If one of the issues is the railway station being cut off from the town by the the A9, would it be possible to swap the road and railway alignment around?

I was thinking that myself. But it would be quite difficult to come up with a temporary alignment that would allow the railway to keep running (unless it was blockaded for at least a couple of weeks).

[Berk]

Maybe there’s also issues due to the fact the A822/A923 and A984 meet close to the A9.

Can’t they be relocated to meet into the next scheme?? That would make the access arrangements for Dunkeld a lot easier.

[Euan]

Maybe there’s also issues due to the fact the A822/A923 and A984 meet close to the A9.

Can’t they be relocated to meet into the next scheme?? That would make the access arrangements for Dunkeld a lot easier.

The A984 could be rerouted across a new bridge over the Tay to meet the A9 close to the B867, but I think relocating the A923 and A822 junctions would be a bit trickier. Alternatively both roads could just meet within Dunkeld with a bridge over the A9 only and no junction, then traffic wishing to join the A9 could do so via the old A9 either north or south.

[Berk]

It’s either that or build the grade-separated roundabout.

[paully]

I don't know why a single-carriageway width cut & cover solution hasn't been proposed, with one carriageway on top of the other.

This would solve a few of the problems:
- the approach to the roundabout/GSJ (delete as applicable) wouldn't be in the dark
- the current LILO junction at the station, as well as the car park could be maintained
- much cheaper due to 50% less excavation work

Only downside would be the lack of a through route during construction, the idea proposed above where Birnam is used as the main road may be the only option.