A1 Northumberland Dualling

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wrinkly
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Re: A1 Northumberland Dualling

Post by wrinkly »

exiled wrote: For the Scottish Government it does not make sense to commit to dualling before something concrete south of the border. Without the English stretch getting upgraded the other routes will still be more useful for long distance traffic, risking a completely D2 A1 in Scotland being a bit of a white elephant.
Doesn't the same apply in reverse?

Also, if the Scottish government wanted the A1 completely dualled, wouldn't they have been pressing the UK government to do the English section? I've seen no reports saying they have.
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Re: A1 Northumberland Dualling

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wrinkly wrote:
exiled wrote: For the Scottish Government it does not make sense to commit to dualling before something concrete south of the border. Without the English stretch getting upgraded the other routes will still be more useful for long distance traffic, risking a completely D2 A1 in Scotland being a bit of a white elephant.
Doesn't the same apply in reverse?

Also, if the Scottish government wanted the A1 completely dualled, wouldn't they have been pressing the UK government to do the English section? I've seen no reports saying they have.
At the moment the Scottish Government probably cannot politically justify it. The remaining S2 section has reasonable lines of sight, has been improved, so unless the English section is improved the economic benefit would not justify a political cost. It has political and economic benefits in NE England. There are sections of D2 on the Scottish side so it is half started, about a quarter of the Berwick/Dunbar section is dualled, which would be the Scottish Government's likely answer. Most of the A1 S2 pinch points are in Northumbria.

However when the A1 in England is starting to be improved to the border, the Glasgow M8-73-74 improvements will have been made and selling the A1 completions would be easier for Holyrood.
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Re: A1 Northumberland Dualling

Post by Glenn A »

I was last on the S2 section from Morpeth to Alnwick 2 years ago. It's a nice piece of nostalgia driving along there, with the wide S2, businesses and houses alongside the road and at grade junctions, like the rest of the A1 would have been like in the fifties, but once a tractor appeared, it became a complete grind. Unfortunately, for all it would be sad to see this nostalgic piece of A1 eventually be replaced, it's just not fit for purpose now and a D2 is needed.
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Mark Hewitt
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Re: A1 Northumberland Dualling

Post by Mark Hewitt »

I was last on the S2 section from Morpeth to Felton 7 hours ago! And yes it desperately needs to go!
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wrinkly
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Re: A1 Northumberland Dualling

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exiled wrote:
wrinkly wrote:
exiled wrote: For the Scottish Government it does not make sense to commit to dualling before something concrete south of the border. Without the English stretch getting upgraded the other routes will still be more useful for long distance traffic, risking a completely D2 A1 in Scotland being a bit of a white elephant.
Doesn't the same apply in reverse?

Also, if the Scottish government wanted the A1 completely dualled, wouldn't they have been pressing the UK government to do the English section? I've seen no reports saying they have.
At the moment the Scottish Government probably cannot politically justify it. The remaining S2 section has reasonable lines of sight, has been improved
You could say the same about the A9 but they're keen to dual that.
so unless the English section is improved the economic benefit would not justify a political cost.
Political cost?
selling the A1 completions would be easier for Holyrood.
Why is selling necessary? In the 1990s the upgrade of the A74 was undertaken with enthusiasm in Scotland without waiting for the English section.
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Re: A1 Northumberland Dualling

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wrinkly wrote:You could say the same about the A9 but they're keen to dual that.
so unless the English section is improved the economic benefit would not justify a political cost.
Political cost?
selling the A1 completions would be easier for Holyrood.
Why is selling necessary? In the 1990s the upgrade of the A74 was undertaken with enthusiasm in Scotland without waiting for the English section.
Whether the A9 deserves upgrade to full D2 Perth to Inverness depends on point of view. But the consensus is something had to be done. Politically it runs through the Deputy First Minister's FPTP constituency, so is an easy sell to the current administration.

The A74 upgrade was prior to devolution, although upgrading that route would probably have been a priority of the Dewar, McLeish, McConnell, Salmond and Sturgeon administrations if it had not been done already. However, it was done before devolution. Since 1999 the Scottish Executive and then the Scottish Government will have looked on the network from their perspective.

Simply looking at the map shows the gap on dualling the A1 is in England. The dualled section of the A1 stretches out from Edinburgh to Dunbar, with about a quarter of the rest of the route to the border dualled. If the Westminster government does not commit and start to build D2 sections south of the border, the Scottish Government cannot politically justify dualling its section.

Bringing back Fastlink between the '74 and Edinburgh can be done, but investing in a cross border link that is going to be ignored by cross border traffic because of the S2 situation in England is a non starter until England improves the link.

Selling it is important. Because of devolution if a Scottish Government invests in a project it cannot sell as beneficial, or that looks like a white elephant, it will be punished electorally. Most of the current upgrades have been where the pressure has been on the Scottish Office, then the Scottish Executive and now the Scottish Government for years. The A1 simply because so few of the upgrades needed are in Scotland will not be top priority until something is done on the English side.
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Re: A1 Northumberland Dualling

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I drove from Skye to near Alnwick yesterday, joining the A9 at Dalwhinnie, then the M90, Edinburgh bypass and A1. The A9 was busy south of Pitlochry but the average speed cameras and 50 limit for HGVs have definitely improved the drive compared to previous similar journeys. The Edinburgh bypass was busy but moving OK and there was zero delay at Sheriffhall. Traffic on the A1 was quite light, certainly lighter than the A9, though Berwick to Alnwick was busier than Dunbar to Berwick. Alignment is very good, though not quite up to A9 standards.

If my journey is anything to go by, full dualling of the A1 from Dunbar to Alnwick is major overkill. Short dualled sections or S2+1 sections between Alnwick and Berwick (perhaps Adderstone to Belford), and possibly some junction improvements would suffice.

In my view A9 Perth to Pitlochry, Edinburgh bypass widening and Sheriffhall should be higher priority for Scotland than A1 dualling. As for the English stretch, well I could think of a very long list of higher priorities for Highways England than full dualling.

As an aside, I was surprised at the lack of marking of the border just north of Berwick (southbound at least).
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Mark Hewitt
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Re: A1 Northumberland Dualling

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owen b wrote: If my journey is anything to go by, full dualling of the A1 from Dunbar to Alnwick is major overkill. Short dualled sections or S2+1 sections between Alnwick and Berwick (perhaps Adderstone to Belford), and possibly some junction improvements would suffice.
Yup a few more overtaking opportunities wouldn't go amiss, it's far too easy to get stuck behind HGVs, having said that I haven't done that stretch since the increase to 50mph so it might have improved the situation.
As for the English stretch, well I could think of a very long list of higher priorities for Highways England than full dualling.
They just really really need to dual Morpeth-Felton, after all it was supposed to be complete in 2008, and here we are 10 years after the original start date of the scheme and it's still awaiting go ahead. If they were to dual to Alnwick-Ellingham that would plug another gap and give D2 all the way to the Seahouses turnoff.
As an aside, I was surprised at the lack of marking of the border just north of Berwick (southbound at least).
There's English flags and the likes but certainly there's no "Welcome to England" unlike the huge "Welcome to Scotland" sign there is Northbound. I kind of like both approaches really, one direction Scotland is proudly advertising itself the other way it's more of the Irish border approach of crossing without fanfare.
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Re: A1 Northumberland Dualling

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Having driven between Morpeth & Edinburgh many times, IMHO dualling as far as Berwick is highly desirable, but north of Berwick the existing chunks of D2 are pretty much adequate. Grinding up the stretch past Bellshill, Lindisfarne and Haggerston in a queue of traffic behind a succession of HGVs and coaches seems to take forever, made all the more frustrating by the many comparatively straight stretches which are negated either by oncoming traffic or Ted & Alice a few cars in front steadfastly refusing to go above their stately 50mph in order to overtake said HGV.

Between Berwick and Dunbar the traffic seems noticeably lighter. I don't remember the same feelings of frustration going past Burnmouth, Reston or Grantshouse, with the regular sections of D2 relieving the monotony.
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Re: A1 Northumberland Dualling

Post by Altnabreac »

Bertiebus wrote:Having driven between Morpeth & Edinburgh many times, IMHO dualling as far as Berwick is highly desirable, but north of Berwick the existing chunks of D2 are pretty much adequate. Grinding up the stretch past Bellshill, Lindisfarne and Haggerston in a queue of traffic behind a succession of HGVs and coaches seems to take forever, made all the more frustrating by the many comparatively straight stretches which are negated either by oncoming traffic or Ted & Alice a few cars in front steadfastly refusing to go above their stately 50mph in order to overtake said HGV.

Between Berwick and Dunbar the traffic seems noticeably lighter. I don't remember the same feelings of frustration going past Burnmouth, Reston or Grantshouse, with the regular sections of D2 relieving the monotony.
I'd agree. The Ellingham - Morpeth upgrade to D2 is very welcome and certainly long overdue between Felton and Morpeth but it doesn't really address the 23 mile long section with limited overtaking opportunities between Ellingham and Berwick. The dropped Mousen bends and Haggerston schemes would have been more useful in this regard but there doesn't seem to be any appetite for reviving them. Perhaps some sections of WS2+1 would do the trick instead to give guaranteed overtaking opportunities in North Northumberland.

On the Scottish side by contrast there is good spacing of the D2 sections with the longest S2 section only being around 7 miles.

From the end of the Edinburgh D2 to the Border the spacing is as follows:
  • 8.1km S2 from Innerwick to A1107 Coldingham turn (although some overtaking lanes / S3 near Cockburnspath)
  • 2.5km D2
  • 5.6km S2 from Penmanshiel to Houndwood
  • 3.7km D2
  • 11.7km S2 from Houndwood to Lamberton
  • 1.3km D2 (distance to Border only)
So I'd agree there is probably no need or business case for a full D2 upgrade in Scotland until there is more D2 on the English side that could start to drive traffic from south of the A66 to use the East Coast route to access Edinburgh.

A good initial scheme on the Scottish side might be 7.5km or so of new D2 from the Houndwood D2 section to the Burnhouse railway overbridge. Grade separation for the Reston, Ayton and Eyemouth junctions would also be good to see as part of that scheme. It would be relatively cheap to deliver, with 3 GSJs and a new crossing of the Eye Water being the main structures required.

Each of the other S2 sections in Scotland has more complex structural or environmental issues to overcome and would be more expensive / difficult / unpopular to resolve. The previous D2 upgrades have mainly taken the low hanging fruit and left the more difficult to resolve sections as S2. The main issues to resolve are:
  • Rail bridge at Skateraw
  • Proximity to rail line and cliffs at Bilsdean
  • Proximity to properties at Dunglass Water
  • Rail bridge at Cockburnspath
  • Rail bridge at Penmanshiel
  • Proximity to rail line and properties at Grantshouse
  • Rail bridge at Burnmouth
  • Proximity to properties on both sides of road at Burnmouth
  • Narrow cliffs at Lamberton Shiels
All of these could be overcome with time, money and political capital but until more D2 is in place in England I don't see Scottish Governments of any political persuasion devoting much priority to any scheme beyond a D2 Houndwood - Ayton east scheme as outlined above.
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Re: A1 Northumberland Dualling

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That the A1 dualling will be at least another 4 years away was lead item on the BBC local news this morning.
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Re: A1 Northumberland Dualling

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Mark Hewitt wrote:That the A1 dualling will be at least another 4 years away was lead item on the BBC local news this morning.
Article from yesterday confirming the schedule I quoted above:

http://www.northumberlandgazette.co.uk/ ... -1-7916245

Yes, it will be 4+ years (realistically more like 6) before the dualling is complete. No, this is not news, just the BBC catching up...
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Re: A1 Northumberland Dualling

Post by Bertiebus »

Altnabreac wrote: On the Scottish side by contrast there is good spacing of the D2 sections with the longest S2 section only being around 7 miles.

From the end of the Edinburgh D2 to the Border the spacing is as follows:
  • 8.1km S2 from Innerwick to A1107 Coldingham turn (although some overtaking lanes / S3 near Cockburnspath)
  • 2.5km D2
  • 5.6km S2 from Penmanshiel to Houndwood
  • 3.7km D2
  • 11.7km S2 from Houndwood to Lamberton
  • 1.3km D2 (distance to Border only)
Curious mix of miles and kilometers in the same post. Only in the UK... :lol:
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Re: A1 Northumberland Dualling

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I've just been looking at the scheme page. Here are a couple of links from it:

http://www.highways.gov.uk/publications ... ewsletter/

http://www.highways.gov.uk/publications ... nt-panels/

It appears that for each of the two sections now proposed for dualling, they are looking at three options.

I think the three options for Morpeth to Felton are the same ones looked at more than 10 years ago. The green route was chosen on that occasion, but now they've gone back to the beginning.
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Re: A1 Northumberland Dualling

Post by Mark Hewitt »

And they'll probably go through the entire process and then have it cancelled, again. Worth repeating that Morpeth to Felton was supposed to open in 2006!
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Re: A1 Northumberland Dualling

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Gav wrote:Hey its not the rockies or the alps were talking about here.

Look at a map of that area and see where a road would have the most impact and provide more return. Link the road in through the borders and provide a high quality link to those communities - by doing this you open up those areas - as those that live in these areas will testify going anywhere outwith the area takes a lot of time. They are building a new railway into the borders. thats infrastructure. so whats to stop them building a decent road or even a motorway ? If done right they could relieve the newcastle bypass and that would be great.
Actually they are reinstating a small PART of the old Borders railway as a commuter route to Edinburgh. By reusing the existing engineering works they kept the cost down to around £330 million. Dualling either the A68 or 697 would cost MUCH more. The mind boggles at the cost of driving a good D2 over Carter Bar and with a national park to the east of the road and a National Nature reserve to the west opposition would be high. Motorway in that area is going to cost REALLY big bucks and attract every road protestor from Lands End to John o'Groats. Unless you have a couple of billion to spare its not going to happen and of course you'd have to get a buy in from both Westminster and the Scottish Parliament, lots of luck with that.

Last time I checked the borders were North of Newcastle so unless you are planning on dualling the A68 all the way to Darlington upgrading the road will take no pressure off the Newcastle bypass. In fact when I drove along the A68 on my way to Skye last year the Western Bypass was the worst bottleneck. In fact I ended up coming back via the A74(M),M6 and A66 as a result.

Having driven the A68 frequently it really doesn't take THAT long to get from the borders to major cities. Jedburgh to Newcastle is usually doable in under 90 minutes with Jedburgh to Edinburgh taking around the same time. Public transport is of course poor but that applies to most rural areas.
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Re: A1 Northumberland Dualling

Post by Altnabreac »

wrinkly wrote:I've just been looking at the scheme page. Here are a couple of links from it:

http://www.highways.gov.uk/publications ... ewsletter/

http://www.highways.gov.uk/publications ... nt-panels/

It appears that for each of the two sections now proposed for dualling, they are looking at three options.

I think the three options for Morpeth to Felton are the same ones looked at more than 10 years ago. The green route was chosen on that occasion, but now they've gone back to the beginning.
Had meant to say I was relatively impressed with the North of Ellingham proposals. 3 of the most dangerous junctions improved, 2 well spaced sections of overtaking with dedicated overtaking lanes for each direction. When you combine that with the dualling further south I think delivery of all of these schemes will start to tip the balance away from the A68 and A697 for Tyneside - Edinburgh traffic.
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Re: A1 Northumberland Dualling

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Bertiebus wrote:Curious mix of miles and kilometers in the same post. Only in the UK... :lol:
Or in NASA. Pity about the Mars Climate Orbiter.
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Re: A1 Northumberland Dualling

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Most people I know who drive from Newcastle to Edinburgh prefer the A696/68 route as it's quieter than the A1.
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Re: A1 Northumberland Dualling

Post by Altnabreac »

Glenn A wrote:Most people I know who drive from Newcastle to Edinburgh prefer the A696/68 route as it's quieter than the A1.
As do I at the moment but the thing holding the A1 back is the journey time unpredictability of getting stuck behind something north of Morpeth.

On the Scottish side the S2 sections are already relatively well spaced so if you have D2 to Ellingham and then 2 new overtaking sections between Ellingham and Berwick you are then going to have much more reliable faster journey times on the A1 and I think it would become the route of choice much more.
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