A14 Cambridge to Huntingdon "news"

[Micro The Maniac]

Indeed but the M11/A14 from London to Alconbury and the A14 from Felixstowe to the the West Midlands are two separate roads that happen to intersect at Cambridge

I think it is reasonable to describe the A14 as two seperate roads: M6 to Cambridge, then Cambridge to Felixstowe - the existing GBFO TOTSO at Girton is the give-away

The M11 onto the A14 is one continuous road

[roadtester]

Indeed but the M11/A14 from London to Alconbury and the A14 from Felixstowe to the the West Midlands are two separate roads that happen to intersect at Cambridge

I think it is reasonable to describe the A14 as two seperate roads: M6 to Cambridge, then Cambridge to Felixstowe - the existing GBFO TOTSO at Girton is the give-away

The M11 onto the A14 is one continuous road

I think A14 makes sense as a single route number.

Its main purpose is to get traffic from the East coast ports to the Midlands and the current numbering reflects that.

[Micro The Maniac]

Its main purpose is to get traffic from the East coast ports to the Midlands and the current numbering reflects that.

In which case it is logically more efficient to run a rail line alongside, and have container shuttles between Felixstowe and Daventry

But the A34/M40 manages (ahem...) to do the job from Southampton to the Midlands without being a single number,

[c2R]

But the A34/M40 manages (ahem...) to do the job from Southampton to the Midlands without being a single number,

As does the M11/A14/A1 from London to Peterborough, which sort of makes your argument invalid (I think).

As discussed a thousand times above - even if the M11 was the primary number in the multiplex, it would still be a pointless multiplex as the M11 would terminate on the A1. So n/b traffic would still have a number change; while you'd be introducing another one for east-west traffic... It just doesn't make sense...

[Jeni]

Also, nobody other than roadgeeks care what number a road is.

[rasingram2]

Also, nobody other than roadgeeks care what number a road is.

I think that is a bit extreme. While most drivers will just follow signs (or these days SatNav's), and don't care one way or another, there are possible situations where being able to describe a long route reasonably quickly has its advantages. I guess that was why the A14 was done the way it was, despite the route on the ground being substandard in places. It meant that long distance lorry drivers, and probably to a lesser extent foreigners arriving in the east coast ports, could be told to follow the A14 to the M1, then more specific directions. Makes things much easier, and provides a nudge to following that then new route, rather than one of the alternatives.

It's much less of an issue now of course, but the A14 has been a thing for long enough that any change of number should possibly only be done if there is a very good reason.

[Peter350]

Also, nobody other than roadgeeks care what number a road is.

I don’t think that’s necessarily true. When talking about a road in normal conversation, it’s much easier to refer to it by the number rather than name, as long as the people you’re talking to have heard of it. For instance, most people know about the M25 so it would be silly to refer to it as ‘the London Orbital motorway’ during a regular conversation with people who aren’t roadgeeks.

[Fenlander]

Thameslink

if your start and end points are near the stations at each end, fair do's. If not...

You also have to have a load of money, as it's £120 return, not including car parking at Peterborough. By car, you're looking at about £40 in fuel, not including the Dartford Tunnel fees.

It's not just the cash saved, the time taken is approx the same but there's 4 changes on the train and still a walk either end so probably taxi cost too. I wouldn't want to take all the stuff I took by car on the train either. The 2nd year I did it I had a passenger too so that would double the train cost but theoretically halve the car one.

[rasingram2]

if your start and end points are near the stations at each end, fair do's. If not...

You also have to have a load of money, as it's £120 return, not including car parking at Peterborough. By car, you're looking at about £40 in fuel, not including the Dartford Tunnel fees.

It's not just the cash saved, the time taken is approx the same but there's 4 changes on the train and still a walk either end so probably taxi cost too. I wouldn't want to take all the stuff I took by car on the train either. The 2nd year I did it I had a passenger too so that would double the train cost but theoretically halve the car one.

It's currently one change at one of the Thameslink core stations, so you don't even have to change platform. Or go faster and change from King's Cross to St Pancras. Still, I understand not wanting to do it, but you can't say a passenger doubles the total cost of the trip, and compare it to halving the per person cost in the car. And if there are three of you, or you have a two together railcard, it reduces the per person cost by 1/3.

But I do think the train ticket prices do not help, since you get inconvenience, and cheapness in one option, so why would you ride the train? Except if you didn't want to do the M25.

[Fenlander]

You also have to have a load of money, as it's £120 return, not including car parking at Peterborough. By car, you're looking at about £40 in fuel, not including the Dartford Tunnel fees.

It's not just the cash saved, the time taken is approx the same but there's 4 changes on the train and still a walk either end so probably taxi cost too. I wouldn't want to take all the stuff I took by car on the train either. The 2nd year I did it I had a passenger too so that would double the train cost but theoretically halve the car one.

It's currently one change at one of the Thameslink core stations, so you don't even have to change platform. Or go faster and change from King's Cross to St Pancras. Still, I understand not wanting to do it, but you can't say a passenger doubles the total cost of the trip, and compare it to halving the per person cost in the car. And if there are three of you, or you have a two together railcard, it reduces the per person cost by 1/3.

But I do think the train ticket prices do not help, since you get inconvenience, and cheapness in one option, so why would you ride the train? Except if you didn't want to do the M25.

The first time I did the journey by myself by car, if I'd gone by train it would have been 1 fare. The second year I had a passenger, they wanted to go halves on the fuel but as that was paid for they bought the beer instead to approx the cost of half the fuel, if we'd both gone by train that would be 2 rail fares.

But back on topic, ultimately I drove both times. On paper it looked pretty similar distance wise clockwise Vs anticlockwise and A14/M11 cuts the corner off going that way.

[rasingram2]

It's not just the cash saved, the time taken is approx the same but there's 4 changes on the train and still a walk either end so probably taxi cost too. I wouldn't want to take all the stuff I took by car on the train either. The 2nd year I did it I had a passenger too so that would double the train cost but theoretically halve the car one.

The first time I did the journey by myself by car, if I'd gone by train it would have been 1 fare. The second year I had a passenger, they wanted to go halves on the fuel but as that was paid for they bought the beer instead to approx the cost of half the fuel, if we'd both gone by train that would be 2 rail fares.

That's my point, it would have been 1 rail fair each. The cost of the fuel didn't half, it was just shared, therefore the total cost of the train doubled, but the per person cost stayed the same, while by car the total cost didn't change, but the per person cost halved. It's disingenuous to say one doubles and the other halves, as that implies a much bigger difference than actually occurs.

I quite understand doing the trip by car, I'm not trying to say your decision was wrong, I just think we should be very careful when talking numbers in that way.

[Jeni]

There's also the "cost" of having to deal with taking your car into Brighton and losing the time driving when you could be doing something more productive. Not all costs are financial!

[nowster]

There's also the "cost" of having to deal with taking your car into Brighton and losing the time driving when you could be doing something more productive. Not all costs are financial!

There's also the "cost" of the train taking you to nowhere near where you actually want to be, and having to carry heavy luggage around or hiring a taxi to do that for you. It's never black and white, and there's never a solution that satisfies everyone's ideals.

[Berk]

There's also the "cost" of having to deal with taking your car into Brighton and losing the time driving when you could be doing something more productive. Not all costs are financial!

I’ll just point out that I’ve been to Brighton for the last 4 years and I’ve only twice had hold-ups (both on the way down). Finding parking is easy, you just have to be prepared to pay the going rate.

[KeithW]

Indeed but the M11/A14 from London to Alconbury and the A14 from Felixstowe to the the West Midlands are two separate roads that happen to intersect at Cambridge

I think it is reasonable to describe the A14 as two seperate roads: M6 to Cambridge, then Cambridge to Felixstowe - the existing GBFO TOTSO at Girton is the give-away

The M11 onto the A14 is one continuous road

I do not and nor did the Minister of Transport when he decided that the strategic route from Felixstowe to the West Midlands should carry a single number - the A14. Previously it had been made of multiple bits of road mainly the A45 from Felixstowe to Cambridge, the A604 from Cambridge to Rothwell and then the A6 to Leicester.

The M6 is one of the 3 oldest motorways planned in 1957 by the Ministry of Transport had plans and was one of the for three main elements of the National Motorway Network, namely the London-Yorkshire Motorway (M1), the Birmingham-South Wales Motorway (M5) and the Birmingham-Preston Motorway (M6)


In the late 1980's the new A14 route was finalised and comprised of 3 sections
1) The part of the A45 from Felixstowe to Cambridge
2) The part of the A604 from Cambridge to Kettering
3) A new build road from Kettering to Catthorpe which meant it could plug into the M6.

The TOTSO at Girton is the result of the fact that when the M11 was built the main traffic flow was along the dualled A604 from Cambridge to Huntingdon and the A1

The route from Felixstowe (A45) ran along the Cambridge Northern Bypass passing under the M11/A604 to St Neots along what is now the A428, from where you could either continue on the A45 (unsuitable for HGV's - See Kimbolton) or take the A1/A604/A427/A4114 route via Kettering, Market Harborough and Coventry.

[Herned]

Also, nobody other than roadgeeks care what number a road is.

I totally agree. I don’t understand the obsession with numbering at all. In 27 years of driving and having all manner of conversations about journey options, how numbering works or anything related to the actual number has never come up. In fact I would say that generally people know the motorways and nearby significant A roads (A12 or A50 level of importance) but beyond that hardly anyone cares or pays attention

[rasingram2]

Also, nobody other than roadgeeks care what number a road is.

I totally agree. I don’t understand the obsession with numbering at all. In 27 years of driving and having all manner of conversations about journey options, how numbering works or anything related to the actual number has never come up. In fact I would say that generally people know the motorways and nearby significant A roads (A12 or A50 level of importance) but beyond that hardly anyone cares or pays attention

But would you prefer directions like 'A14 to Cambridge, M11 to the A1, then A14 to the M1, then M6 to Birmingham', or 'A14 as far as it goes, then M6'? The specific numbers don't matter to most people (although it makes a difference to people whose job it is to talk about them), but the actual assignment of them makes a great difference to the usability of the system.

[Jeni]

Also, nobody other than roadgeeks care what number a road is.

I totally agree. I don’t understand the obsession with numbering at all. In 27 years of driving and having all manner of conversations about journey options, how numbering works or anything related to the actual number has never come up. In fact I would say that generally people know the motorways and nearby significant A roads (A12 or A50 level of importance) but beyond that hardly anyone cares or pays attention

But would you prefer directions like 'A14 to Cambridge, M11 to the A1, then A14 to the M1, then M6 to Birmingham', or 'A14 as far as it goes, then M6'? The specific numbers don't matter to most people (although it makes a difference to people whose job it is to talk about them), but the actual assignment of them makes a great difference to the usability of the system.

"Follow signs for the Midlands"

[Herned]

But would you prefer directions like 'A14 to Cambridge, M11 to the A1, then A14 to the M1, then M6 to Birmingham', or 'A14 as far as it goes, then M6'? The specific numbers don't matter to most people (although it makes a difference to people whose job it is to talk about them), but the actual assignment of them makes a great difference to the usability of the system.

Head to Cambridge, then follow the signs for the Midlands until you get to the M6. Possibly including "bear in mind to turn off at Huntingdon". And that's it

Does it really affect the usability of the system? In what way? How many people avoid the A417/419 because the numbers are confusing? Or the A2/M2? I would suggest that the failure to differentiate properly between A roads which are high quality dual carriageways and terrible barely improved A roads is a bigger problem in terms of system efficiency

[Fenlander]

"Follow signs for the Midlands"

Back in the 80s an employee of my dads drove out to see his brother in Germany, the directions were quite simple:
Turn left off ferry and follow signs for <German City>, after <x00 miles > turn right. He got there OK.