A14 Cambridge to Huntingdon "news"

[rasingram2]

But would you prefer directions like 'A14 to Cambridge, M11 to the A1, then A14 to the M1, then M6 to Birmingham', or 'A14 as far as it goes, then M6'? The specific numbers don't matter to most people (although it makes a difference to people whose job it is to talk about them), but the actual assignment of them makes a great difference to the usability of the system.

Head to Cambridge, then follow the signs for the Midlands until you get to the M6. Possibly including "bear in mind to turn off at Huntingdon". And that's it

Does it really affect the usability of the system? In what way? How many people avoid the A417/419 because the numbers are confusing? Or the A2/M2? I would suggest that the failure to differentiate properly between A roads which are high quality dual carriageways and terrible barely improved A roads is a bigger problem in terms of system efficiency

So we should get rid of the numbers? I know I'm being a bit extreme, but if they don't serve a purpose, why did we start using them. Just because there are ways to manage without them, doesn't mean they don't have utility. When I was growing up, my dad taught me to navigate with a road atlas, and using road numbers and junction numbers, made the whole thing quicker and easier. As I said, less of an issue now, with the ubiquity of SatNavs, but there are cases they would still have utility, listening to traffic reports on the radio, maybe navigating in a country where the names on the signs are in a language you can't pronounce.

Before SatNavs, when planning a route, you might get out the atlas, and look at it, and see that the A14 ran all that way, and decide that it is the primary route, so you want to follow it. If they had done the same roadworks, but not renumbered it, some people might have looked, seen the A45 pass Cambridge, and follow that, then cross country to Bedford and the M1 instead. The numbering is part (not all) of how routes are suggested, to get drivers to follow long distance roads and avoid issues you might not see on a map. Then there is the choice and length of numbers. One route my mum does is M180-M18-M1, which in some people, consciously or otherwise, helps to suggest the driving from feeder roads to an arterial, and gives confidence in your progress.

My point was not that road numbering is the be all and end all, but that it is one of those design decisions in the world that has a great deal more utility than it might appear, to many people, and while many don't think about it at all, it does matter to them. There must be a reason most countries have decided to number their roads, and think about the system they choose. If it didn't have benefits, the expense wouldn't be worth it. It's like the classic door with a big handle, and the word PUSH above it. It's badly designed, because the handle suggests pull, and the dissonance causes issues, but you could easily say that because it has the instruction on it, complaining about the handle is stupid.

It's not a replacement for designing, building and maintaining the roads better, but choose the right number, and the roads might work just a little better.

For this road, in particular, I like people giving there ideas for the renumber, if it was ever to be done, now is the time, when most of the signs on this stretch will be replaced anyway. But it does have disadvantages, since it would mean changing a lot of other signs not on the new road as well, and I feel there should be a compelling reason to do it.

[A9NWIL]

I totally agree. I don’t understand the obsession with numbering at all. In 27 years of driving and having all manner of conversations about journey options, how numbering works or anything related to the actual number has never come up. In fact I would say that generally people know the motorways and nearby significant A roads (A12 or A50 level of importance) but beyond that hardly anyone cares or pays attention

But would you prefer directions like 'A14 to Cambridge, M11 to the A1, then A14 to the M1, then M6 to Birmingham', or 'A14 as far as it goes, then M6'? The specific numbers don't matter to most people (although it makes a difference to people whose job it is to talk about them), but the actual assignment of them makes a great difference to the usability of the system.

"Follow signs for the Midlands"

So where do they start? destinations on signs start at a certain distance from that destination, before that you have to use other signs. On the other hand road numbers stretch for quite some distances over the country and following them makes a lot of sense.

[Jeni]

So where do they start? destinations on signs start at a certain distance from that destination, before that you have to use other signs. On the other hand road numbers stretch for quite some distances over the country and following them makes a lot of sense.

When exiting the port ..


Dock Gate 1 Roundabout
https://maps.app.goo.gl/zovskzWkxwgbgpzHA

[Herned]

So we should get rid of the numbers? I know I'm being a bit extreme, but if they don't serve a purpose, why did we start using them. Just because there are ways to manage without them, doesn't mean they don't have utility. When I was growing up, my dad taught me to navigate with a road atlas, and using road numbers and junction numbers, made the whole thing quicker and easier. As I said, less of an issue now, with the ubiquity of SatNavs, but there are cases they would still have utility, listening to traffic reports on the radio, maybe navigating in a country where the names on the signs are in a language you can't pronounce.

Before SatNavs, when planning a route, you might get out the atlas, and look at it, and see that the A14 ran all that way, and decide that it is the primary route, so you want to follow it. If they had done the same roadworks, but not renumbered it, some people might have looked, seen the A45 pass Cambridge, and follow that, then cross country to Bedford and the M1 instead. The numbering is part (not all) of how routes are suggested, to get drivers to follow long distance roads and avoid issues you might not see on a map. Then there is the choice and length of numbers. One route my mum does is M180-M18-M1, which in some people, consciously or otherwise, helps to suggest the driving from feeder roads to an arterial, and gives confidence in your progress.

My point was not that road numbering is the be all and end all, but that it is one of those design decisions in the world that has a great deal more utility than it might appear, to many people, and while many don't think about it at all, it does matter to them. There must be a reason most countries have decided to number their roads, and think about the system they choose. If it didn't have benefits, the expense wouldn't be worth it. It's like the classic door with a big handle, and the word PUSH above it. It's badly designed, because the handle suggests pull, and the dissonance causes issues, but you could easily say that because it has the instruction on it, complaining about the handle is stupid.

It's not a replacement for designing, building and maintaining the roads better, but choose the right number, and the roads might work just a little better.

For this road, in particular, I like people giving there ideas for the renumber, if it was ever to be done, now is the time, when most of the signs on this stretch will be replaced anyway. But it does have disadvantages, since it would mean changing a lot of other signs not on the new road as well, and I feel there should be a compelling reason to do it.

I absolutely wouldn't suggest for a moment removing numbers. I meant that the obsession with numbers being out of zone, or 'it would make more sense if...' discussions completely pass me by. I think it would be fair to say that the system we use at present doesn't really work in the hierarchical sense you describe above: (M180-18-1) is very nice and neat and if the system worked like that more often it would be much better.

But it doesn't...At present at say the Black Cat junction, on any map there is no differentiation between the A1 and the A421, and the number might give you the impression that the A1 is the higher-quality route, which we all know is wrong. As I mentioned previously, one of the big failings is that e.g. the A23 and A24 have the same level of number, but one road is of far higher quality (M23-Brighton section, should any pedants be reading!). This to my mind is a major failing in the numbering system, and to some extent leads to people not using perfectly good A roads because they are unsure if it is going to be like the A23 or the A24 if they haven't been there before.

Essentially the numbering system doesn't have enough of a reliable, consistent hierarchy, and as it's never going to be renumbered now there is little point worrying about where it is 'wrong'.

[Big L]

... I meant that the obsession with numbers being out of zone, or 'it would make more sense if...' discussions completely pass me by...

Me too. I just mentally tune out all of those posts.

[rasingram2]

So we should get rid of the numbers? I know I'm being a bit extreme, but if they don't serve a purpose, why did we start using them. Just because there are ways to manage without them, doesn't mean they don't have utility. When I was growing up, my dad taught me to navigate with a road atlas, and using road numbers and junction numbers, made the whole thing quicker and easier. As I said, less of an issue now, with the ubiquity of SatNavs, but there are cases they would still have utility, listening to traffic reports on the radio, maybe navigating in a country where the names on the signs are in a language you can't pronounce.

Before SatNavs, when planning a route, you might get out the atlas, and look at it, and see that the A14 ran all that way, and decide that it is the primary route, so you want to follow it. If they had done the same roadworks, but not renumbered it, some people might have looked, seen the A45 pass Cambridge, and follow that, then cross country to Bedford and the M1 instead. The numbering is part (not all) of how routes are suggested, to get drivers to follow long distance roads and avoid issues you might not see on a map. Then there is the choice and length of numbers. One route my mum does is M180-M18-M1, which in some people, consciously or otherwise, helps to suggest the driving from feeder roads to an arterial, and gives confidence in your progress.

My point was not that road numbering is the be all and end all, but that it is one of those design decisions in the world that has a great deal more utility than it might appear, to many people, and while many don't think about it at all, it does matter to them. There must be a reason most countries have decided to number their roads, and think about the system they choose. If it didn't have benefits, the expense wouldn't be worth it. It's like the classic door with a big handle, and the word PUSH above it. It's badly designed, because the handle suggests pull, and the dissonance causes issues, but you could easily say that because it has the instruction on it, complaining about the handle is stupid.

It's not a replacement for designing, building and maintaining the roads better, but choose the right number, and the roads might work just a little better.

For this road, in particular, I like people giving there ideas for the renumber, if it was ever to be done, now is the time, when most of the signs on this stretch will be replaced anyway. But it does have disadvantages, since it would mean changing a lot of other signs not on the new road as well, and I feel there should be a compelling reason to do it.

I absolutely wouldn't suggest for a moment removing numbers. I meant that the obsession with numbers being out of zone, or 'it would make more sense if...' discussions completely pass me by. I think it would be fair to say that the system we use at present doesn't really work in the hierarchical sense you describe above: (M180-18-1) is very nice and neat and if the system worked like that more often it would be much better.

But it doesn't...At present at say the Black Cat junction, on any map there is no differentiation between the A1 and the A421, and the number might give you the impression that the A1 is the higher-quality route, which we all know is wrong. As I mentioned previously, one of the big failings is that e.g. the A23 and A24 have the same level of number, but one road is of far higher quality (M23-Brighton section, should any pedants be reading!). This to my mind is a major failing in the numbering system, and to some extent leads to people not using perfectly good A roads because they are unsure if it is going to be like the A23 or the A24 if they haven't been there before.

Essentially the numbering system doesn't have enough of a reliable, consistent hierarchy, and as it's never going to be renumbered now there is little point worrying about where it is 'wrong'.

I know, a badly put Appeal to Extremes joke. I know the system doesn't always work, and in a complex network it never will. But everyone tries their best. I'm not worried about out of zone numbers too much, obviously it would be silly to build a new short road and give it a number from the wrong part of the country, but if a road is extended out of zone, changing it would be a waste. Even things like the A14 don't bother me, as they wanted to make it obvious this was a main route, and I kind of think the zone system was not set up for cross-country routes very well. As you say, there are some major failings in the system, some might have been foreseeable when it was set up, but many I suspect not.

And I agree about the A1, it may have been a higher quality route once, but time rolls along. I think that comes under don't renumber unless there is a good reason to. We are way beyond any comprehensive fix to the system, but I don't think we should stop trying, within reason.

[KeithW]

I absolutely wouldn't suggest for a moment removing numbers. I meant that the obsession with numbers being out of zone, or 'it would make more sense if...' discussions completely pass me by. I think it would be fair to say that the system we use at present doesn't really work in the hierarchical sense you describe above: (M180-18-1) is very nice and neat and if the system worked like that more often it would be much better.

But it doesn't...At present at say the Black Cat junction, on any map there is no differentiation between the A1 and the A421, and the number might give you the impression that the A1 is the higher-quality route, which we all know is wrong. As I mentioned previously, one of the big failings is that e.g. the A23 and A24 have the same level of number, but one road is of far higher quality (M23-Brighton section, should any pedants be reading!). This to my mind is a major failing in the numbering system, and to some extent leads to people not using perfectly good A roads because they are unsure if it is going to be like the A23 or the A24 if they haven't been there before.

Essentially the numbering system doesn't have enough of a reliable, consistent hierarchy, and as it's never going to be renumbered now there is little point worrying about where it is 'wrong'.

The numbers for the most part date back to the original classification and indicate the perceived importance of the route in national terms rather than the quality of the road to which it applies. There are some that have a very variable quality of which the A1 is an excellent example varying as it does from D4(M) to S2. In the 1960's the A1 was described as the busiest and most dangerous country lane in Europe

Another example is the A19 which between Thirsk and Wolviston is near motorway quality D2 and D3 but south of Thirsk it is an unimproved S2. What is inconsistent is that the southern S2 section is not Trunk while the DC Thirsk to Seaton Burn is. The old convention of showing such sections in the form of A19(T) had something to say for it.

Individual routes have been renumbered as happened with the A14 and large portions of the A66 but only on a compelling case by case basis.

[KeithW]

I know, a badly put Appeal to Extremes joke. I know the system doesn't always work, and in a complex network it never will. But everyone tries their best. I'm not worried about out of zone numbers too much, obviously it would be silly to build a new short road and give it a number from the wrong part of the country, but if a road is extended out of zone, changing it would be a waste. Even things like the A14 don't bother me, as they wanted to make it obvious this was a main route, and I kind of think the zone system was not set up for cross-country routes very well. As you say, there are some major failings in the system, some might have been foreseeable when it was set up, but many I suspect not.

And I agree about the A1, it may have been a higher quality route once, but time rolls along. I think that comes under don't renumber unless there is a good reason to. We are way beyond any comprehensive fix to the system, but I don't think we should stop trying, within reason.

Most of the original numbers go back to the original classification and the A1 was not only no better than most but for much of its route didnt go through the geographical locations it now follows. It got the number A1 because it linked London and Edinburgh just as the A2 linked London and Dover the A3 was the London to Portsmouth road, the A4 the London to Bath road and the A5 the London to Holyhead road. The number allocated was all about the national importance of the route not the quality of the road or roads that it passed over. Much of the A1 goes over quite different roads than it does now. Within Living memory the A1 passed through Newcastle, Durham, Darlington and Northallerton before joining the current road at Dishforth even the Barnett bypass was not part of the original A1.

[BeenEverywhere]

I used one of the new bits last week, as this is how you access Cambridge services when westbound.

All I can say is for the amount of time and money spent, you'd have thought someone would have bought a spirit level. It's like a big dipper.

[roadtester]

Now a local woman is claiming that the A14 roadworks destroyed her marriage.

https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/c ... n=sharebar

[c2R]

Now a local woman is claiming that the A14 roadworks destroyed her marriage.

https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/c ... n=sharebar

It's clearly a very slow news day....!

[trickstat]

Now a local woman is claiming that the A14 roadworks destroyed her marriage.

https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/c ... n=sharebar

I hope that when the works are completed this is balanced out by them printing stories of people who no longer have the Huntingdon flyover blighting their lives.......

[Berk]

I’m not being funny but this woman does have a serious point. The northern bypass has also had on-off roadworks for more than 4 years. You have to see it from the eyes of residents who can’t escape the noise, dust and disruption when their homes are metres from either the roads, or in villages on the diversion route.

It is pretty unbearable what some residents are having to live through.

[KeithW]

Now a local woman is claiming that the A14 roadworks destroyed her marriage.

https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/c ... n=sharebar

It's clearly a very slow news day....!

So to recap she moved into a house near a major junction on a strategic road knowing there were roadworks scheduled and is shocked and horrified to find that its noisy - Quelle Surprise !

[Berk]

It isn’t just this family. The A14 works have caused a lot more disruption than usually associated with roadworks.

From trailing convoys snarling up villages and causing vibrations, to blocking shoppers in Tesco’s car park at Bar Hill. I think if you lived close by the route, you’d also feel as strongly.

Not that it won’t be worth it in the end, but it does seem pretty disruptive for some.

[NSWP]

When in UK May/June last year, we stayed at Holiday Inn, Huntingdon Racecourse for a few days. So visiting places like Duxford, Ely etc, got on the A14 often, a real mess. When is it all supposed to be complete? Will be a great bypass when complete, the volume of heavy vehicles is huge.

It is due to complete in 2020 (Autumn?). A major reason for the HGV is it being the main route to and from Felixstowe, which is the biggest container port in the UK.

Thanks for update, we are in England again next April/May, have to avoid A14 if I can. Now when Brexit happens, lol, there may not be as many lorries coming across from the continent, carrying their goodies for the British populace.

[c2R]

It isn’t just this family. The A14 works have caused a lot more disruption than usually associated with roadworks.

From trailing convoys snarling up villages and causing vibrations, to blocking shoppers in Tesco’s car park at Bar Hill. I think if you lived close by the route, you’d also feel as strongly.

Not that it won’t be worth it in the end, but it does seem pretty disruptive for some.

But.... anyone living in Bar Hill, and most of the people living around the Cambridge Northern bypass moved to their houses in the full knowledge that they were moving next to a major strategic route. Even the lady in the article itself tacitly admits that when she says that she can't afford to live anywhere else in Cambridge - it clearly is cheaper owing to its location, with the reason for this being the proximity to the road. It would be like moving under the final approach for Heathrow and then complaining that the additional runway that is being planned will mean additional aircraft noise - absolutely true, but the house would be cheaper as a result of the blight, and anyone moving to it should do their homework as to what living there might be like.

[Herned]

Thanks for update, we are in England again next April/May, have to avoid A14 if I can. Now when Brexit happens, lol, there may not be as many lorries coming across from the continent, carrying their goodies for the British populace.

Felixstowe trades mainly with the rest of the world outside Europe, and if our future outside the EU is as glorious its supporters/fantasists (delete as appropriate) suggest, the A14 will truly be the road to prosperity!

[KeithW]

It isn’t just this family. The A14 works have caused a lot more disruption than usually associated with roadworks.

From trailing convoys snarling up villages and causing vibrations, to blocking shoppers in Tesco’s car park at Bar Hill. I think if you lived close by the route, you’d also feel as strongly.

Not that it won’t be worth it in the end, but it does seem pretty disruptive for some.

Indeed but then major roadworks are known to do this. I may come across as less than sympathetic but I recall very clearly the disruption and mess caused by the construction of the A174 Teesside Parkway and the swathe of destruction the building of the A99 and A19 cut through Middlesbrough. Unlike us she moved into that house KNOWING that the road works were coming. I dont buy the excuse that it was all they could afford as I lived in one of the other outlying Cambridgeshire villages and Girton is at the high end of the price range with 3 bed terraced houses going for half a million quid.

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/tees ... on-8971801

Interesting how times have changed, not a single hard hat or high vis vest worn by any of the construction workers, the only head protection was the traditional flat cap

[KeithW]

Felixstowe trades mainly with the rest of the world outside Europe, and if our future outside the EU is as glorious its supporters/fantasists (delete as appropriate) suggest, the A14 will truly be the road to prosperity!

Most of the traffic from Felixstowe originates outside Europe and arrives on Panamax container ships on around the world schedule. A container arriving in Felixstowe is more likely to originate in China, India, Korea, Japan or the USA than Dusseldorf.