M25 J23-27

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WHBM
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by WHBM »

Brenley Corner wrote:The A3 between Roehampton and Guildford is very busy...... from the M25 to Guildford it's 3 lanes no hard shoulder.
This overlooks that the A3 on that section has a continuous grassed (in fact partially gravelled) verge, with low-level kerbs, which any broken-down vehicles, maintenance vehicles, etc, on that section invariably pull onto, something engineered out of ALR motorways.

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c2R
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by c2R »

Indeed, that was sort of my point - here, for example, if you broke down there is nowhere to go.

You might make it to the refuge, or maybe you won't. If you don't, you have to rely on motorway control noticing you're broken down (how long would it take them to tell if the traffic was at a standstill anyway?) and close the lane. Other road users would then have to be sufficiently observant to move out of the lane. What if your car caught fire? How would the fire brigade get to it? If you had an older parent in a wheelchair, or young family, where would you go to get out of the way?
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sotonsteve
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by sotonsteve »

Just to note, the computer systems used on the M25 smart motorway are just as reliable and accurate as those used elsewhere on the motorway. To give examples, the system identifies a blocked lane and reduces the speed limit to 40 when there is no blockage (this has happened to me about half a dozen times now, both on the northern and southern sections, and the variable speed limit goes up to NSL just before traffic grinds to a complete halt for five minutes.
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by Jurassic »

Isn't the idea of that not to identify a blocked lane but to slow traffic approaching the congestion to try and improve safety and reduce queuing?
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by Jurassic »

Isn't the idea of that not to identify a blocked lane but to slow traffic approaching the congestion to try and improve safety and reduce queuing?
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by AutomaticBeloved »

Drove this section for the first time this weekend. The concrete surface is appalling, thought I had a flat until crossing a patched section. Also where the old markings have been burnt off is very rough!

As for safety, I'd say comparisons between D2 with no shoulder and D4M is that the D4M is a downgrade from what was there before in terms of safety
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Duncan
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by Duncan »

I drove the Junction 5 to 7 section for the first time yesterday since the roadworks finished. I have to say it felt very weird having four running lanes with a metre hardstrip at the edge, and didn't feel like a motorway at all. True, in some places you could still have got all four wheels off the road if you broke down, but most motorists will not realise this, and if they can't reach a lay-by will just stop where they are. Will this not result in more rear end shunts, hence more delays? Also, IIRC there are no longer emergency phones every half mile, but only in the lay-bys. Does this not increase the risk for women travelling alone? Sorry if anyone thinks I'm being sexist, but I'm thinking of the M50 murder here.
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Brenley Corner
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by Brenley Corner »

Duncan wrote:Also, IIRC there are no longer emergency phones every half mile, but only in the lay-bys. Does this not increase the risk for women travelling alone? Sorry if anyone thinks I'm being sexist, but I'm thinking of the M50 murder here.


Surely most people use their mobiles to call for help these days even from the motorway; I had the surprise of my life to see someone walking along the M2 the other morning towards a phone from their broken-down car. Could it now be that the roadside phones belong more to a past era without ubiquitous mobiles.
In terms of personal safety surely it is much safer for lone travellers to stay close to their vehicle rather than to walk to a fixed phone - especially after dark?

Tony
Last edited by Brenley Corner on Wed Jul 09, 2014 21:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Haydn1971
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by Haydn1971 »

Also, the roadside phones are laughable - your hearing is drowned out by the sheer volume of road noise from passing vehicles
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Debaser
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by Debaser »

Duncan wrote:Will this not result in more rear end shunts, hence more delays?
I'm afraid I'm not familiar with this section of motorway, but if it was suffering stop-start congestion during the peak hours (or, indeed, outside them) then work I did on a section of the M1 suggests that most collisions would have occurred during these peak periods and would have been shunts. With free-flowing traffic travelling at similar speeds the likelihood of these type of collisions happening, or indeed any other type, is vastly reduced.

It also has to be reiterated that the biggest cause of breakdowns on the motorway network is people running out of fuel, second, IIRC, is flat tyres. Modern vehicles are extremely reliable - well beyond what they were when we created the cross-section standard including a hard shoulder, in part this may be why the research suggests that 50% of drivers whose vehicles suffer a problem will be able to carry on and leave the motorway and not have to use the hard shoulder - in practice, on a section of MM this would mean they could either get to an exit or to an ERA easily. Whilst catastrophic failures do occur (i.e. those causing a vehicle to stop immediately) the likelihood of them occurring is extremely low.
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David349
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by David349 »

Debaser wrote: Whilst catastrophic failures do occur (i.e. those causing a vehicle to stop immediately) the likelihood of them occurring is extremely low.
This is what bothers me about it. Yes, the risk might be extremely low, but the whole point of the HS is for the few who need it, not the many who need to get to work. The only time I've ever had to stop was at 2AM on the M27 and I was very grateful for the knowledge that I wasn't having to stop in a live lane. People running out of fuel on the motorway can be solved by providing properly spaced MSA facilities and then fining people who do have to stop in 'forseeable circumstances'(like Germany), leaving the hard shoulder for genuine emergencies. Just because something isn't financially favorable doesn't mean it's not worth doing...
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by Brenley Corner »

People should simply never run out of fuel - services or no services.

It's the simplest thing to ensure you always have enough fuel to complete a journey especially now vehicles can tell you how far until they are empty. To date I have driven thousands of miles in dozens of cars over nearly 30 years and the one thing I have never done is run out of fuel (or filled up in a motorway services at those extortionate prices). People need to learn to think and plan for something that can so easily be avoided.

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millionmiledriver
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by millionmiledriver »

No sorry it is possible to run out of fuel This happened some years ago so it may not apply now Took a ferry from Larne to Stranraer as I had a quarter of a tank I intended to fill up at the BP station at Stranraer by the ferry terminal .The ferry arrived on time at 10.45pm much to my horror the station was closed the next petrol station was at Dumfries 100 miles east on the A75 .I could not have made it so got as far as I could rang the RAC who escorted me to a locked petrol station to which he had the key .Ludicrously the owners of the BP station closed at 10.30 each night 15 minutes before the ferry arrived and vehicles regularly needed fuel so he had keys to several stations
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owen b
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by owen b »

Brenley Corner wrote:People should simply never run out of fuel - services or no services.

It's the simplest thing to ensure you always have enough fuel to complete a journey especially now vehicles can tell you how far until they are empty.
You would think so. But I confess that I have run out of fuel twice in 28 years of driving. On one occasion I had a faulty trip computer which said I still had 30 miles left. Fortunately on that occasion I was within a few hundred metres of a fuel pump. The other occasion was my own silly fault, though not helped by the lack of filling stations on the A1 / A1(M) northbound from Ferrybridge in the late 1990s. These days I have a diesel which does an indicated 60-70 mpg at 70mph on a motorway, so if I fill up locally before I set off, I can go practically anywhere in Great Britain without having to fill up on the way.

Thinking about it, with vehicle flows of up to 200,000 vpd on some motorways, it's a wonder you don't see more vehicles which have run out of fuel.
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by Fenlander »

Only time I've ever run out the gauge was still reading almost a quarter of a tank. I never trusted it after then and got into a habit of resetting the trip meter each fill up and using that as a double check.
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by Robin »

Brenley Corner wrote:People should simply never run out of fuel - services or no services.
Sure, but it is possible to get caught out nevertheless.

Twenty years ago I had to make a short journey at 01.30 a. m. I knew I had very little petrol in my tank but I also knew I would pass about ten petrol stations so I set off without any worries. Every petrol station was closed! I came to a stop a few hundreds yards from the first still-open petrol station! I was not amused.

I don't take that kind of chance any more.
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c2R
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by c2R »

I was at Applecross one Saturday night years ago, and was glad of having a jerrican in the boot with an extra few litres as the petrol station was closed until the monday morning (although if I was really stuck I would bet someone in the pub knew the owner to open it up if necessary!). Now their filling station has got automatic card payment so visitors generally should no longer have the issue. There were some Italians who it wasn't working for last year though!
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by Benny »

Anyone who takes the Trip Computer reading as 'gospel' shouldn't be driving IMO.

It is considered best practice by organisations such as IAM to fill up when your gauge reads 1/4 full, especially in these times where a town centre may not have a filling station nearby. Even my little Rover 100 with its thimble of a fuel tank should be able to get me across a major city whilst hunting for a petrol station.

Running a car on low fuel could damage the fuel pumping system. Some cars have 2 pumps and the smaller one is usually 'in tank' running such a car on 'dregs' could cause the pump to fail prematurely, if this happens the other pump won't last long as it won't cope with doing all the pumping by itself.
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owen b
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by owen b »

roverman wrote:Anyone who takes the Trip Computer reading as 'gospel' shouldn't be driving IMO.
I don't think you should expect the trip computer to be absolutely spot on, but if it's telling you you've still got 30 miles left I think it's reasonable to expect you're not on the point of running out. If anything, the trip computer should be set up to be conservative in any case.
roverman wrote:It is considered best practice by organisations such as IAM to fill up when your gauge reads 1/4 full, especially in these times where a town centre may not have a filling station nearby.
But that means you end up wasting time filling up before you need to. One quarter full for me is about 150 miles range. These days if I'm pottering around locally I'll fill up when I happen to pass a cheap filling station without a big queue if I'm below one quarter full, or else on about an indicated 50 miles range. When I'm travelling a long distance, I make sure I've got enough before I set off to avoid needing expensive motorway petrol.
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by Runwell »

Went along the short stretch between J27 to J26 the other day, for the first time since April.

Things have progressed very well it seems. Work appears to be all but done around the verges, with the new gantries in place, and most gantry signage up now as well.

Work is now underway on the new central barrier. Works from J26 to the Bell Common tunnel are progressing nicely. To the east of the tunnel to J27, looks like work on taking down the old central reservation has only just begun.

Didn't go as far as J25, but am possibly heading that way inside the next few weeks.
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