M25 J23-27

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85CF380
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by 85CF380 »

The M1 Managed Motorway Toddington to j10 worked well last night. From j15 to Toddington (3 lanes only) speeds fluctuated between 30 & 50 mph, with the extra lane in operation after Toddington a comfortable 56mph was achieved. Between j13 & j10 there were two breakdowns, one in the live HS lane section and both had managed to access the Emergency Refuges.
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A303Chris
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by A303Chris »

I did M25 J28 (Brook Street) round to J16 M40 yesterday evening and the MM section opened between J25 and J23 was working fine even with a breakdown. However the signing was awful. When I got on at J28 there were 3 variable message signs which said "X" means lane closed do not enter, which seemed weird as this section has a HS, went through the road works where there is currently no VMS and as I left the Holmsdale tunnel on to the MM section the overhead gantry was showing 40mph for lanes 2 to 4 with a cross over lane 1. I then assumed that the early messages were to worn drivers given the lack of VMS currently between J27 and J25 because many still do not fully understand how MM work.

But after the gantry with the cross the fun started, as after this gantry there is only one other gantry with variable speed limit signs between J25 and J24 the rest being MS4. However the next MS4 after the gantry was showing 50mph, so as there was no crosses drivers moved into lane 1 and started to speed up. The next MS4 showed a x in lane one and 3 straight arrows for the other lanes, so drivers moved out. The next had a 60mph showing so people moved backed in to lane 1, but the next went back to a cross. We then went passed an emergency area and a car was being towed in by a traffic officer. After this the MS4 showed nothing and this lead to more confusion as some drivers accelerated to 70mph while other stayed at 60mph thinking the previous limit still applied.

I have to omit I am still not convinced that MM's with no lighting and just using MS4's is safe
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Patrick Harper
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by Patrick Harper »

One thing I fear most is that if hard shoulder disposal becomes widespread, there will barely be any distinction in engineering standards between an all-purpose road and a motorway. What's the point of having a double standard in that case?
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by millionmiledriver »

Having now travelled a number of times on the so called managed M25 J 23 to 25 I can only conclude that Mr Dalton of the HA is a fool Even last Saturday afternoon with a breakdown there was a jam .If you really have to have a managed motorway then the M42 where hard shoulder running happens only at peak times is the answer What Mr Dalton has created here is a dangerous road how long before someone is killed
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by Runwell »

Took J27 to J26 anticlock last Saturday. Concrete barrier virtually all in place, barring a few tiny gaps they were working on. Gantries and signage all looks to be in place. HA site now gives a completion date of November. Looks almost complete, and ready for testing.
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by Runwell »

Drove through the J27-25 stretch yesterday lunchtime, and it looks virtually ready to roll.

All work on central barrier now complete. Inside lane coned off both ways, although virtually no work on site. A small area of verge a/c past J26 was being excavated across a short stretch. Otherwise I assume all they have to do is do some testing, fully 'commission' the new signage, and it's all done?
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by Runwell »

All four lanes are now open clockwise from the start of the Bell Common Tunnel to the M11. All temporary signs beside the road on that stretch have gone, although I don't recall seeing an End of Works NSL sign prior to the tunnel last night. Neither it seems did most of the drivers, who were still doing around 50. Although that might be explained by the presence of the cameras still in position.

They seem to be testing the VMS's right now from J25-27. Some were displaying the 50 in a red circle. Didn't see any work going on anticlockwise yesterday afternoon. Looking clockwise I saw a works truck pulled up around J26, but nothing else. I can't imagine it will be more than a few days before commissioning is complete for the new systems, and the whole thing opens. Be nice if it did next Saturday - the next time I will probably use that stretch.

EDIT: HA site says J25-27 will be fully open from Friday :D
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by ManomayLR »

Chris5156 wrote: Fri Oct 25, 2013 13:47
Paspie wrote:Managed motorways with hard shoulders that can be run if the traffic flow suggests the need, are fair enough. Replacing them with intermittent lay-bys however, is simply plain dangerous, especially as it hasn't been trialled on any 'lesser' motorway yet.
It's been trialled for decades on non-motorway dual carriageways. The A1 between Peterborough and Doncaster has two lanes, a 70mph limit, runs significantly above its design capacity for much of the day and has lay-bys about every half mile (which means it has more than many other sections of HQDC and more even than some managed motorways). In the event of a breakdown that can't reach a lay-by (which is itself not all that common) it gets a bit slow but it's hard to argue that it is actually dangerous for not having a full, continuous hard shoulder.

A motorway that has no hard shoulder, frequent lay-bys and the advantage of blanket CCTV and matrix signals to warn of broken down vehicles or blocked lanes can only be safer and is, at worst, no less safe.
6 years on and we might be having second thoughts about that...
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jackal
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by jackal »

£7.5m of minor improvements going in at J23:
Widening of the A1 southbound merge slip road to provide a two-lane entry to the A1 south
New footway for pedestrians from the BP service station to the existing footway adjacent to the roundabout
Upgrade the traffic signal timings to improve traffic flow through the junction
A new lane at the Bignells Corner exit from South Mimms services
Widening of the M25 westbound exit slip road to accommodate an additional lane on the approach to the junction to reduce congestion
Updated road signs to reflect the new road layout
https://highwaysengland.co.uk/projects/m25-junction-23/
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by thatapanydude »

jackal wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:47 £7.5m of minor improvements going in at J23:
Widening of the A1 southbound merge slip road to provide a two-lane entry to the A1 south
New footway for pedestrians from the BP service station to the existing footway adjacent to the roundabout
Upgrade the traffic signal timings to improve traffic flow through the junction
A new lane at the Bignells Corner exit from South Mimms services
Widening of the M25 westbound exit slip road to accommodate an additional lane on the approach to the junction to reduce congestion
Updated road signs to reflect the new road layout
https://highwaysengland.co.uk/projects/m25-junction-23/
Interesting work going on. In addition I would like to see the lighting replaced with some proper 15m LED columns, gantry's at least on the A1 Northbound and VMS tech on the A1(M) SB approach to J23.

Moreover, a longer term ambition should be to extend the motorway to Borehamwood which would bring about full-size lanes and an improvement in safety.
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Chris5156
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by Chris5156 »

thatapanydude wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 20:25Moreover, a longer term ambition should be to extend the motorway to Borehamwood which would bring about full-size lanes and an improvement in safety.
For me, a more worthwhile improvement would be to build the Scratchwood Link and connect Stirling Corner roundabout to M1 J3... but I don't think either of those is going to happen.
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by ManomayLR »

Chris5156 wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 20:34
thatapanydude wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 20:25Moreover, a longer term ambition should be to extend the motorway to Borehamwood which would bring about full-size lanes and an improvement in safety.
For me, a more worthwhile improvement would be to build the Scratchwood Link and connect Stirling Corner roundabout to M1 J3... but I don't think either of those is going to happen.
Considering I live nearby, I'd much rather go towards the A406 by zooming down the M1 instead of dealing with signalized junctions on A1 and A41.
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by WHBM »

7.5m of minor improvements going in at J23 … Upgrade the traffic signal timings to improve traffic flow through the junction
This junction is second only to J28 Brentwood for completely locking up the roundabout and then impacting all approaches. Something that double hamburgers are particularly prone to because with the straight aheads eliminated the remaining right turn component is very high.

I would always like to have thought that HE would already have best optimised timings on the junction, after all its history of trouble. Seemingly not.
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by Bryn666 »

The folly of thinking three level roundabouts actually work.

Also the problem of bodging motorways out of existing roads..
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by c2R »

EpicChef wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 20:40
Chris5156 wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 20:34
thatapanydude wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 20:25Moreover, a longer term ambition should be to extend the motorway to Borehamwood which would bring about full-size lanes and an improvement in safety.
For me, a more worthwhile improvement would be to build the Scratchwood Link and connect Stirling Corner roundabout to M1 J3... but I don't think either of those is going to happen.
Considering I live nearby, I'd much rather go towards the A406 by zooming down the M1 instead of dealing with signalized junctions on A1 and A41.

Yeah, I really don't understand why this isn't being done given the M1 is under utilised at this point - it would make the area around Mill Hill Circus, and Apex Corner really quite pleasant - all sorts of urban realm improvements could be made, including far better cycling and public transport facilities and plantings. Tunneling could be done through Scratchwood to minimize the impact on the open space - a route could be done using cut and cover which would minimise woodland destruction - most of it's a golf course anyway...
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Chris Bertram
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by Chris Bertram »

c2R wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:11
EpicChef wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 20:40
Chris5156 wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 20:34
For me, a more worthwhile improvement would be to build the Scratchwood Link and connect Stirling Corner roundabout to M1 J3... but I don't think either of those is going to happen.
Considering I live nearby, I'd much rather go towards the A406 by zooming down the M1 instead of dealing with signalized junctions on A1 and A41.

Yeah, I really don't understand why this isn't being done given the M1 is under utilised at this point - it would make the area around Mill Hill Circus, and Apex Corner really quite pleasant - all sorts of urban realm improvements could be made, including far better cycling and public transport facilities and plantings. Tunneling could be done through Scratchwood to minimize the impact on the open space - a route could be done using cut and cover which would minimise woodland destruction - most of it's a golf course anyway...

st_corner.png
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by Chris5156 »

c2R wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:11Yeah, I really don't understand why this isn't being done given the M1 is under utilised at this point - it would make the area around Mill Hill Circus, and Apex Corner really quite pleasant - all sorts of urban realm improvements could be made, including far better cycling and public transport facilities and plantings. Tunneling could be done through Scratchwood to minimize the impact on the open space - a route could be done using cut and cover which would minimise woodland destruction - most of it's a golf course anyway...
It's a rare example of a tiny bit of roadbuilding that would make things so much better for so many people. The A1 would no longer need to pass through Mill Hill, traffic would have a faster journey to London and even the option of going direct to Staples Corner if it was heading west, etc etc etc. There's no argument against it - and yet, since the 1960s, it's all been blocked because the golf club don't like it.

If I was Mayor of London it'd be going in my transport plan as part of an active travel strategy because the effect on the A1 and A41 would be transformative.
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jackal
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by jackal »

In the 60s that may have been why it was blocked. But in recent times the desire to stop cars going into London must also be a factor.
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Re: M25 J23-27

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jackal wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:29In the 60s that may have been why it was blocked. But in recent times the desire to stop cars going into London must also be a factor.
Possibly - though the environmental benefits to Mill Hill and Hendon would be significant, so it's not a clear cut argument.

I wonder if there would be some objection based on the capacity of Staples Corner roundabout.
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by c2R »

Chris5156 wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2019 13:40
jackal wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:29In the 60s that may have been why it was blocked. But in recent times the desire to stop cars going into London must also be a factor.
Possibly - though the environmental benefits to Mill Hill and Hendon would be significant, so it's not a clear cut argument.

I wonder if there would be some objection based on the capacity of Staples Corner roundabout.
Possibly, but much of the traffic may be exiting at Fiveways anyway...

There's then a couple of options about Hendon - either the M1 southbound sliproad could be reopened (given the A1 coming down from Mill Hill would be essentially a minor route), this would allow A41 traffic to join its existing route - but better, given the eastbound sliproads at Staples Corner already exist, would be to tear down Brent Cross's horrible three level stacked roundabout and provide direct sliproads from the A406 to the A41 South instead - this would be more expensive but would have the benefit of removing traffic from Hendon Central, and also removal of the trumpet at Colindeep Lane.

I know the objective isn't to funnel more traffic into London, and the motorway was essentially designed with the objective of being strategic and collecting traffic to send outwards, but it would make sense that, given the motorway is there and the M25 takes the long distance traffic away, more was done now to allow it to be used for more local journeys - such as putting London bound slips at J6A and 4 to effectively replace the A1 and A41 all the way into London.
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