M25 J23-27

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harr629
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M25 J23-27

Post by harr629 »

How is it getting on? I know the lights have been removed, Are they to be reinstated, or permanently removed? How is general progress?
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by Mattsignmaker »

At the mo it changes every few days from running the 3 lanes hardshoulder side to running 3 lanes central reservation side. Its got past the point of being really chaotic but only takes one car to break down to bring everything to a halt.

I'm right next to j24 and regulary go either 24 to 25 or 24 to 23 and don't usually run into any problems but I can imagine it gets pretty busy at peak periods.

Tbh the A1 going from south mimms to sterling corner has been causing more problems over the last few weeks.
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by zipdip »

Hi I thought I would mention that the speed cameras are all working heading for the bridge and tunnel at Dartford,of course due to the permanent traffic jam they stay silent most of the day,but the signs for the reduced speed limit are on the central armco 60mph and then 50 mph,for people not used to this crossing they can be missed,a better place for them would be on the overhead gantries of which there are many but suspect they get more fines leaving them where they are.
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A303Chris
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by A303Chris »

I read this from the head of the Highways Agency Graham Dalton in this months Highway Magazine on this scheme and the following is a quote.

"We know managed motorways work and they perform well. We also know they're safre and that drivers like them. The bit on the M25 (J5-7 and J23-27) is what we call mananged motorways all lanes running. It will be dual four lane at all times with full running capacity using the variable speed limit to give a measured and controlled flow. So we get extra capacity through a fourth lane, steady through put, lane utilisation and fewer incidents to disrupt flow. This will become the standard method of increasing motorway capacity"

This has left me with some queries.

1) Isnt this the same as the widening J16 to J23 and J27 to J30 which is D4 with intermittent hard shoulders through some structures but a variable speed limit ?

2) Or is it a total removal of Hard Shoulder as is the case through junctions 9 and 10 of M6 which is used as the fourth lane ?

3) if it is 2 while this may be acceptable for short dictances through junctions is it really safe to remove the hard shoulder for 17 miles of the M25 (J23 to J27) and 13 miles (J5 to J7), especially as the rest of the motorway bar J3 to J5 will be D4 with hard shoulder?

To me this approach is worrying and I can see the limit be permanently set at 50 or 60mph.
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MiChaos
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by MiChaos »

As far as I am aware, all Managed Motorway schemes from 2013 will be Managed Motorway-All Lane Running, where the Hard Shoulder is permanently removed and replaced with the intermittent (every 2.5 km) emergency lay-bys.

http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/inde ... _Motorways
http://www.highways.gov.uk/our-road-net ... motorways/

(As an aside, I completely agree this is a dangerous move. Intuitively, having a hard shoulder as a running time makes sense, albeit they need to sort out signage and signalling to make this clear to all road users. Having no hard shoulder at all on a motorway looks and feels very dangerous IMO).

From the SABRE Wiki: Managed Motorways :

REDIRECT Smart Motorway

[[Category:Highway

... Read More
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A303Chris
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by A303Chris »

MiChaos wrote:As far as I am aware, all Managed Motorway schemes from 2013 will be Managed Motorway-All Lane Running, where the Hard Shoulder is permanently removed and replaced with the intermittent (every 2.5 km) emergency lay-bys.

http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/inde ... _Motorways
http://www.highways.gov.uk/our-road-net ... motorways/

(As an aside, I completely agree this is a dangerous move. Intuitively, having a hard shoulder as a running time makes sense, albeit they need to sort out signage and signalling to make this clear to all road users. Having no hard shoulder at all on a motorway looks and feels very dangerous IMO).
So we are going to have more M90's then without hard shoulders. Bascially we are turning our motorway system in to all purpose trunk roads with some flashly electronics!!!!
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From the SABRE Wiki: Managed Motorways :

REDIRECT Smart Motorway

[[Category:Highway

... Read More
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by Jamesabout29 »

Bascially we are turning our motorway system in to all purpose trunk roads with some flashly electronics!!!!
Couldn't put it better myself. Well said mate!
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by c2R »

We know that motorists like managed motorways?

Really - Compared to what?
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by M19 »

Jamesabout29 wrote:
Bascially we are turning our motorway system in to all purpose trunk roads with some flashly electronics!!!!
Couldn't put it better myself. Well said mate!
It will be worse though won't it? The bits of the M90 without shoulders has a hardstrip like a lot of high quality dual carriageways which allows for broken down vehicles that cannot make it to the next layby (in the case of A road all purpose) or refuges (in the case of the M90) to pull into the edge and at least leave some gap for passing traffic without blocking a lane.
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Patrick Harper
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by Patrick Harper »

Managed motorways with hard shoulders that can be run if the traffic flow suggests the need, are fair enough. Replacing them with intermittent lay-bys however, is simply plain dangerous, especially as it hasn't been trialled on any 'lesser' motorway yet.

If a car brakes down on a regular motorway, they just wait in the hard shoulder without risk of being run into. With this new section though, if a driver doesn't manage to reach a lay-by quick enough, boom instant pile-up.
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by michael769 »

Most of the M8 in Glasgow lost its hard shoulders years ago. There are the odd layby, but nothing as regular as on the managed motorways.

Cars do break down on the carriageway and while it causes congestion chaos at peak times pileups are unheard of.
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Re: M25 J23-27

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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by Chris5156 »

Paspie wrote:Managed motorways with hard shoulders that can be run if the traffic flow suggests the need, are fair enough. Replacing them with intermittent lay-bys however, is simply plain dangerous, especially as it hasn't been trialled on any 'lesser' motorway yet.
It's been trialled for decades on non-motorway dual carriageways. The A1 between Peterborough and Doncaster has two lanes, a 70mph limit, runs significantly above its design capacity for much of the day and has lay-bys about every half mile (which means it has more than many other sections of HQDC and more even than some managed motorways). In the event of a breakdown that can't reach a lay-by (which is itself not all that common) it gets a bit slow but it's hard to argue that it is actually dangerous for not having a full, continuous hard shoulder.

A motorway that has no hard shoulder, frequent lay-bys and the advantage of blanket CCTV and matrix signals to warn of broken down vehicles or blocked lanes can only be safer and is, at worst, no less safe.
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by Johnathan404 »

Indeed. I dislike managed motorways on principle but it must be said that if we're talking about risk of a serious collision, a hard shoulder is usually worse.
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by owen b »

c2R wrote:We know that motorists like managed motorways?

Really - Compared to what?
The obvious answered is "compared to being stuck in heavy traffic on a D3M while there's a deserted hard shoulder which could have been converted to a running lane".

I'd rather managed motorways weren't necessary but on very congested motorways they are vastly better than nothing in my view.
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MiChaos
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by MiChaos »

I can understand Managed Motorways with dynamic hard shoulders, makes sense to have the extra running lane at busy times when traffic volumes have caused traffic to slow down anyways. Replacing them as a continuous running lane just feels an extra unnecessary step, removing the hard shoulder at all times.

The other thing that bothers me is that with the new MM Standards, instead of overhead gantries, the signs for this will all be by the MS4 signs. Where lanes may need to be closed in a hurry due to breakdowns etc., I would have thought that gantries are the better way to clearly communicate which lanes are open and which are closing / closed. Especially since the emergency laybys are moving from every 800m to 2.5kms!

Overall, I agree MM should be safer due to the cameras, signs, sensors etc. I just can't help feeling the latest standards are just too cheap and nasty for my liking.
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by Glom »

It is a shame. Our roads, on the odd occasion we actually build them, were of such a high standard.
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by Patrick Harper »

At least say, if the permanent running lane doesn't work out then it can easily be converted to a dynamic hard shoulder. The rest of the upgrades, besides the loss of lighting, should be pretty good: fresh tarmac and safety barriers, VSL and VMS...it'll do the job just fine whilst we think about how to get traffic off the M25.
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by Jamesabout29 »

But new lighting columns have appeared West of J25 and just East of J24. Don't know what the lanterns will be. Sapphires probably
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by M19 »

In Venezuela's cities, hard shoulder running 'just happens' when the motorways are busy enough without any costly electronic gimmickry.

Not saying its a good thing, more like it just happens all by itself due to lack of enforcement.
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