M25 J23-27

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sotonsteve
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by sotonsteve »

You can't really compare the A1 near Doncaster with the M25. One, the M25 is a far busier road, and two, it handles a higher proportion of HGVs. The emergency refuge areas being built on the M25 seem like a huge distance apart, and away from junctions the message signs tend to be very widely spaced.

What I'd like to know is what the money is being spent on exactly. At £188million, that's a lot of money for a project that requires so little structural work. It wasn't that long ago that the M25 around Heathrow was practically completely rebuilt for £145million, new bridges, new carriageways and all.
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c2R
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by c2R »

sotonsteve wrote:You can't really compare the A1 near Doncaster with the M25. One, the M25 is a far busier road, and two, it handles a higher proportion of HGVs. The emergency refuge areas being built on the M25 seem like a huge distance apart, and away from junctions the message signs tend to be very widely spaced.

What I'd like to know is what the money is being spent on exactly. At £188million, that's a lot of money for a project that requires so little structural work. It wasn't that long ago that the M25 around Heathrow was practically completely rebuilt for £145million, new bridges, new carriageways and all.
Are all the old concrete surfaces coming up and being replaced? I like them, in that it gives the road character from all the blacktop everywhere else, but they are very old and very noisy...
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by Chris5156 »

sotonsteve wrote:You can't really compare the A1 near Doncaster with the M25. One, the M25 is a far busier road, and two, it handles a higher proportion of HGVs. The emergency refuge areas being built on the M25 seem like a huge distance apart, and away from junctions the message signs tend to be very widely spaced.
My point was simply that we already have any number of fast roads without hard shoulders, with infrequent lay-bys, and without any electronic control or CCTV coverage whatsoever, and we don't consider them to be inherently unsafe. Why do we consider permanent hard shoulder running inherently unsafe?
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sotonsteve
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by sotonsteve »

And I reiterate my point, the M25 is a considerably busier road with a higher proportion of lorries, and I myself have observed many breakdowns on the M25 in the roadworks where there are more opportunities to pull out of live running lanes than there will be once the works are complete. More vehicles means greater likelihood of breakdowns, more lorries means less chance of vehicles being able to reach refuges, and higher density of traffic means any breakdown has a more serious effect.

There are A-roads where when a vehicle breaks down lane 1 traffic merges into lane 2 fairly easily. Not the M25.
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by Brenley Corner »

I was using this stretch last Friday afternoon and a van had broken down in Lane 1 and traffic was coping very well. This was with narrow lanes in a road works area with traffic at a constant 50. This gives me confidence that when the scheme is complete and awash with technology, it should work just fine..
As a regular user of M25 J5 to J7 I would have preferred full widening but am more than happy with the scheme being built - at least something is being done.
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Johnathan404
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by Johnathan404 »

Paspie wrote:The rest of the upgrades, besides the loss of lighting, should be pretty good: fresh tarmac and safety barriers, VSL and VMS
I asked about this when the M27 was originally pencilled in for MM, and was told the concrete surface would not be changing, which seemed rather short-sighted. It has since had a new texture applied but hasn't been rebuilt since the 1970s.
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harr629
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by harr629 »

Another accident today, would love to know how many there's been since these roadworks. This section seems to always be in the traffic reports
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Ben302
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by Ben302 »

Johnathan404 wrote:
Paspie wrote:The rest of the upgrades, besides the loss of lighting, should be pretty good: fresh tarmac and safety barriers, VSL and VMS
I asked about this when the M27 was originally pencilled in for MM, and was told the concrete surface would not be changing, which seemed rather short-sighted. It has since had a new texture applied but hasn't been rebuilt since the 1970s.
I drove the J23-27 section today and for a few miles west of J25 it appears the permanent road markings are being applied and yes it also appears the concrete surface between J25 and J24 is to remain albeit with new markings on new alignments as it now has 4 marked lanes with a few inch wide margins on both the verge and the central barrier. At leat the lines don't wander over the carriageway width like between J8 and J11. The stretch between J24 and J23 is being completely resurfaced by the looks of things as the SMA was probably coming to the end of it's life judging by the bumps and patches. Some sections look almost complete while others seem a long way off with central barrier still to go in in some places and gantries awaiting signals and signs. I imagine J23-25 being completed before Xmas and work starting on the next bit in the new year.
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by Runwell »

Yes I drove through that stretch a couple of weeks ago, and most of the concrete barrier had been installed. Surprised they are retaining the concrete surface from Potters Bar to Enfield - all part of the cost cutting I presume, as though it's very noisy, it doesn't feel too bumpy?

FWIR I believe the J23-25 section is scheduled to be complete by early spring. In recent weeks I have seen clearance and other associated works taking place between J25-27.
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by Ben302 »

Runwell wrote:Yes I drove through that stretch a couple of weeks ago, and most of the concrete barrier had been installed. Surprised they are retaining the concrete surface from Potters Bar to Enfield - all part of the cost cutting I presume, as though it's very noisy, it doesn't feel too bumpy?
It's quite a bumpy ride where it meets underbridges and seeing as it was built in 1981 and other similarly aged concrete pavement in the area has long since been replaced or overlaid, I'd thought this would be done as part of the works
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by harr629 »

Runwell wrote:Yes I drove through that stretch a couple of weeks ago, and most of the concrete barrier had been installed. Surprised they are retaining the concrete surface from Potters Bar to Enfield - all part of the cost cutting I presume, as though it's very noisy, it doesn't feel too bumpy?

FWIR I believe the J23-25 section is scheduled to be complete by early spring. In recent weeks I have seen clearance and other associated works taking place between J25-27.
I don't think they are, haven't driven on this stretch for a while but on the HA traffic cameras it looks like the concrete has been replaced. It was replaced between J28 and 27, however that was widening and so the project was different.
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MiChaos
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by MiChaos »

I drove this stretch the other day. Have to say although originally sceptical about using MS4 signs instead of gantries it looks like what they're doing is using gantries after each junction, then MS4s in between - as my partner commented (and she *never* comments on roads! :laugh: ) "If there's a problem, they can sign the specific details just after the junction above each lane as people join, then you just remind people with the other signs [MS4s]". I have to admit there's a certain logic to this!

Some of the signs seem messy though. Approaching the A10 turnoff clockwise there's a sign overhanging lanes 1 and 2, with a downwards arrow over lane 1 and nothing over lane 2 - although a lot more expensive wouldn't it be worth having the full gantry and signs over lanes 2 to 4 showing "M25, Dartford Crossing, etc. etc."? Just didn't seem the clearest way to sign it, IMO.
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by c2R »

I was stuck on this bit for a long time just after the Holmesdale Tunnel going clockwise last week - an accident had occurred just before the start of rush hour, and it was all lane running through the roadworks. Predictably, it was difficult for the police to get to the scene of the accident, and traffic all had to merge round onto a single lane while police figured out what had happened, with no hard shoulder to put vehicles on.
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Ben302
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by Ben302 »

Drove both sets of works this weekend and amazed at the pace of the works between Junction 27 to 25 section of the works! Cantilever signs already going up and closures for gantry removal being posted and some new barrier going in the verge!! Elsewhere Junction 25 to 23 is done apart from a few isolated areas of remedial surfacing and marking Ditto Junction 7 to 5
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CJ
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by CJ »

Since the J23-25 section opened I've driven it a few times, and a couple of things strike me:
* on the full-span gantry anti-clockwise between J25-24, there's a speed camera which has been merrily flashing away every time I've been past (this was with no speed limit shown on the gantry) -- are they now prosecuting for 79mph, or is it just under test / faulty?
* one time I drove it, there was a broken down van blocking lane 1 (as the hard shoulder has disappeared). This required two police cars and a HATO protecting the scene, where previously no police attendance would have been necessary when there was a hard shoulder.
Surely this can't be a good use of police time & resources...
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A303Chris
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by A303Chris »

The HA have just add a video of one of there vehicles driving along the new opened ALR between J23 and J24, which can be found here

In my professional opinion it has not allayed any of my fears about safety. If you break down between the refuges there is no where to go given the barriers, so you are stuck in lane 1 and the second as with the M1 they taken the street lights away. Given how busy this road is and the lack of hard shoulder, surely street lighting should have remained.
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by Brenley Corner »

There's no lighting on the M25 J5 to J6 either where ALR has been running for at least a month.

I hear what you are all saying about safety but what I don't understand is that there are hundreds/thousands of miles of 70mph dual carraigeway some of it very busy and some of it 3 lanes (A3 between M25 and Guildford as an example). There are no refuges and no CCTV and no lane control on these roads yet I don't hear the cries of 'unsafe' about these.

What has happened is that the M25 between J5 & J7 has virtually disappeared from the daily traffic news and that has to be good news as it used to have daily tailbacks. I've also driven this section since it went live and I don't feel unsafe in any way; there was a breakdown last Saturday when I used it but the drivers had managed to pull out of the running lanes and traffic was passing in all 4 lanes.

So what gives?

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c2R
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by c2R »

Brenley Corner wrote:There's no lighting on the M25 J5 to J6 either where ALR has been running for at least a month.

I hear what you are all saying about safety but what I don't understand is that there are hundreds/thousands of miles of 70mph dual carraigeway some of it very busy and some of it 3 lanes (A3 between M25 and Guildford as an example). There are no refuges and no CCTV and no lane control on these roads yet I don't hear the cries of 'unsafe' about these.
I would have thought traffic volumes on the A3 are much lower. Where they are high, there are safety concerns, such as the A14 from Huntingdon to Cambridge. There also tends to be grass on the side of a D2AP that you can get the car off onto. Many of the managed motorways have concrete or steel barriers right at the edge of the hard shoulder.

Having experienced a breakdown on a standard D3 motorway, in medium traffic, I was able to get the car off to the hard shoulder, and then await arrival by the AA. If it was a D4 with hardshoulder running in heavy moving traffic, I double I would have been as lucky. Would I even have bothered to aim for the hard shoulder if I was an average road user - the central reserve might be more inviting in that split second decision of what to do: hard shoulder full of slow vehicles, central reservation, or just breaking down where I am...
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Brenley Corner
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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by Brenley Corner »

The A3 between Roehampton and Guildford is very busy. It's 3 lanes/no hard shoulder between Roehampton and Hook (Kingston Bypass). From Hook to the M25 it's 3 lanes and hard shoulder, and from the M25 to Guildford it's 3 lanes no hard shoulder. All the sections are very busy but I would say that the two busiest are the sections with no hard shoulder.

I just don't feel unsafe on the M25 with all lanes running in the same way as I don't feel unsafe on any 70mph dual carriageway. In fact the busier the road the slower the average speed and the it would seem to me that, if anything, hard shoulders are needed more on lightly trafficked roads where speeds are higher

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Re: M25 J23-27

Post by Keiji »

Brenley Corner wrote:I just don't feel unsafe on the M25 with all lanes running in the same way as I don't feel unsafe on any 70mph dual carriageway. In fact the busier the road the slower the average speed and the it would seem to me that, if anything, hard shoulders are needed more on lightly trafficked roads where speeds are higher
I think there's a difference between not feeling unsafe and feeling safe. My local Ur Example is the A380/A38/M5. I don't feel unsafe here or here or here, but once I get here I can breathe a sigh of relief and relax a lot more and feel safe, because of all the benefits of motorway driving, one of them being that you don't have to worry about broken down vehicles because there is a hard shoulder to contain them.
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