A83 Rest And Be Thankful blocked again

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Burns
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Re: A83 Rest And Be Thankful blocked again

Post by Burns »

haggishunter wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 21:35 The tunnelling or avalanche or viaduct options in Glen Croe don't address the landslide problems further West beyond the Rest and be Thankful either.
Then all we can do is build multiple tunnels.
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KeithW
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Re: A83 Rest And Be Thankful blocked again

Post by KeithW »

Burns wrote: Wed Oct 17, 2018 08:41
haggishunter wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 21:35 The tunnelling or avalanche or viaduct options in Glen Croe don't address the landslide problems further West beyond the Rest and be Thankful either.
Then all we can do is build multiple tunnels.
Alternatively sidestep the whole issue and build fixed links elsewhere.

Example a tunnel from the A770 west of Gourock to Dunoon and a tunnel (or bridge) across Loch Fyne say from the A815 near Ardnagowan to the A83 at Auchnabreac.

This not only outflanks the Rest And Be Thankful but greatly shortens the time and distance from Strahclyde to Tarbert and Cambeltown and opens up the whole Cowal peninsula while reducing traffic on the A82. Neither crossing is that long. I know Loch Fyne is up to 120m deep near Ardnagowan but with modern bridging methods this should be easily achievable with a mixture of piled approaches and a cable stayed bridge.

It could be built in stages with the Gourock to Dunoon done first allowing the ferries to be relocated to carry traffic across Loch Fyne while the new link was built there.

This is a back of the envelope plan and clearly not costed but it is the sort of lateral thinking that may be appropriate to meet 21st century requirements. Glasgow to Tarbert is only 65 miles using the ferries but its a 3 hour drive ! Use the A82/A83 and its a 100 miles and 2.5 hours IF the Rest and Be Thankful is open. Right now its 130 miles and 3.5 hours. Reduce that to 1.5 hours and 70 to 80 miles and that should boost the economy in Argyll and Bute rather nicely. If nothing else shipping costs for everything from food and drink to household goods like TV's and fridges should fall.

I am not alone in this madcap idea :)
http://www.cowalfixedlink.scot/index.asp?pageid=659278

For precedents consider the Great Belt Fixed Link in Denmark that carries both road and rail traffic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Belt_Fixed_Link
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Re: A83 Rest And Be Thankful blocked again

Post by Berk »

Sounds awesome. Only thing is, it might encourage proponents of a bridge to Northern Ireland... 😏
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Re: A83 Rest And Be Thankful blocked again

Post by Euan »

haggishunter wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 21:35 The tunnelling or avalanche or viaduct options in Glen Croe don't address the landslide problems further West beyond the Rest and be Thankful either.
The A83 was closed south of Ardrishaig due to a landslide around 20 years ago. I don't know the exact location of where it occurred but Kintyre would effectively have been cut off from the rest of the mainland, regardless of whether the site was north or south of the beginning of the long S1 Knapdale loop (B8024) which would have been unsuitable for such volumes of traffic anyway. As a result, there was a cascade of CalMac ferries in the Clyde involving vessels on the Largs, Colintraive and Tarbert routes to enable an enhanced 24/7 service on the Tarbert - Portavadie crossing to operate.

During times like just now when the A83 is closed, it wouldn't be too logistically challenging for Western Ferries to run four vessels at Dunoon, given that they usually only run three out of four available ones except during peak times on Fridays and Saturdays. CalMac is however, a less straightforward case as their vessels are located all up and down the west coast of Scotland with a very limited number of spare vessels which can quite often take a couple of days to reach where they're needed if they are in an inconvenient location to start with. In other words, it would usually not be quite as easy to increase the number of sailings at Portavadie compared to Dunoon.

Nonetheless, temporarily enhancing the ferry routes would certainly improve connections from the Central Belt to the villages in Cowal and Kintyre during the inconvenient times when there is no through road at Rest and Be Thankful.
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Re: A83 Rest And Be Thankful blocked again

Post by M4 Cardiff »

Surely an option would be to build a new route through the forestry area on the western side of the glen
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Re: A83 Rest And Be Thankful blocked again

Post by Euan »

It looks like the road is now open again, but with temporary traffic signals:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... t-45896415
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Re: A83 Rest And Be Thankful blocked again

Post by Pendlemac »

Another landslip has happened and blocked it again.
Bear Scotland said it received reports of debris on the A83 at the Rest and Be Thankful at 03:00 on Thursday.

More than 1,000 tonnes of material landed on the carriageway to the east of the area covered by debris fences and "catchpits" which were erected after previous landslides.
Quote above from BBC story here
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Re: A83 Rest And Be Thankful blocked again

Post by fras »

I saw this news item, and I have driven over the road quite a few times in each direction. What surprised me was it was reported that traffic had been diverted down the old Military Road built by General Wade in the 18th century ! Surely this road is not maintained ? OS shows it as unmetalled, i.e no tarmac
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Re: A83 Rest And Be Thankful blocked again

Post by Alderpoint »

fras wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 22:40 What surprised me was it was reported that traffic had been diverted down the old Military Road built by General Wade in the 18th century ! Surely this road is not maintained ? OS shows it as unmetalled, i.e no tarmac
It was partially rebuilt a few years ago to allow it to be used as an emergency diversion route. ISTR it operates on a one-way convoy system, but I'm sure this is all described up-thread if you look.
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Re: A83 Rest And Be Thankful blocked again

Post by rhyds »

Here's a picture I took in 2016, the Old Military Road is the lower level route, and was fully surfaced but with gates at each end
rest.jpg
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Re: A83 Rest And Be Thankful blocked again

Post by Nwallace »

fras wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 22:40 I saw this news item, and I have driven over the road quite a few times in each direction. What surprised me was it was reported that traffic had been diverted down the old Military Road built by General Wade in the 18th century ! Surely this road is not maintained ? OS shows it as unmetalled, i.e no tarmac
OS maps don't actually show the surface status any more, and haven't done so since the Seventh Series was introduced.
What is shown on the map is simply an unclassified, not of high enough status to be shown in Yellow, road with no fence or walls.

I've also just realized that the map shows an uncorrupted Laigh, he most famous being the Laich of Menteith (the spelling of the voiceless fricatives varies between the 2 with no bearing on which one it is).
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Re: A83 Rest And Be Thankful blocked again

Post by Nwallace »

KeithW wrote: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:11
Burns wrote: Wed Oct 17, 2018 08:41
haggishunter wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 21:35 The tunnelling or avalanche or viaduct options in Glen Croe don't address the landslide problems further West beyond the Rest and be Thankful either.
Then all we can do is build multiple tunnels.
Alternatively sidestep the whole issue and build fixed links elsewhere.

Example a tunnel from the A770 west of Gourock to Dunoon and a tunnel (or bridge) across Loch Fyne say from the A815 near Ardnagowan to the A83 at Auchnabreac.
Just saw this
The Firth of Clyde between Gourock and Dunoon is around 80m deep at low water
Loch fyne is 125m deep in places at low water

What's more the surface at those depths is Mud and Sand

None of the existing bridges and tunnels in Scotland are crossing water that deep; none of the Danish bridges and tunnels are crossing water that deep either.
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Re: A83 Rest And Be Thankful blocked again

Post by hoagy_ytfc »

Tunnels can float though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Zlz3N5MA50

(Maybe, I don't think one has actually been built yet)
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Re: A83 Rest And Be Thankful blocked again

Post by Pendlemac »

Nwallace wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 00:29
KeithW wrote: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:11
Burns wrote: Wed Oct 17, 2018 08:41
Then all we can do is build multiple tunnels.
Alternatively sidestep the whole issue and build fixed links elsewhere.

Example a tunnel from the A770 west of Gourock to Dunoon and a tunnel (or bridge) across Loch Fyne say from the A815 near Ardnagowan to the A83 at Auchnabreac.
Just saw this
The Firth of Clyde between Gourock and Dunoon is around 80m deep at low water
Loch fyne is 125m deep in places at low water

What's more the surface at those depths is Mud and Sand

None of the existing bridges and tunnels in Scotland are crossing water that deep; none of the Danish bridges and tunnels are crossing water that deep either.
You need the folk building this!

125m? Childs play. :D
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Re: A83 Rest And Be Thankful blocked again

Post by KeithW »

Pendlemac wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 08:07
Nwallace wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 00:29
KeithW wrote: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:11

Alternatively sidestep the whole issue and build fixed links elsewhere.

Example a tunnel from the A770 west of Gourock to Dunoon and a tunnel (or bridge) across Loch Fyne say from the A815 near Ardnagowan to the A83 at Auchnabreac.
Just saw this
The Firth of Clyde between Gourock and Dunoon is around 80m deep at low water
Loch fyne is 125m deep in places at low water

What's more the surface at those depths is Mud and Sand

None of the existing bridges and tunnels in Scotland are crossing water that deep; none of the Danish bridges and tunnels are crossing water that deep either.
You need the folk building this!

125m? Childs play. :D
Not in mud and sand it isn't, the Rogfast tunnel runs through rock which can be cut by drilling and blasting before being made stable by rock bolting. Here is a picture showing tunnelling in process.
Image


In the case of mud and sand you would be considering prefabricated tunnel sections laid in a seafloor trench which would be tricky when you are operating in a busy navigable waterway. Then you have to consider the approaches. Last but not least is finding the money. It would cost about the entire annual Scottish road budget for the tunnel alone.
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Re: A83 Rest And Be Thankful blocked again

Post by Nwallace »

If only there was a multi-national regional development fund that could be applied to...
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Re: A83 Rest And Be Thankful blocked again

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

Nwallace wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 18:56 If only there was a multi-national regional development fund that could be applied to...
They didn't apply when it was available - the issue of landslips at the Rest isn't new.
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Re: A83 Rest And Be Thankful blocked again

Post by Nwallace »

Ruperts Trooper wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 19:17
Nwallace wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 18:56 If only there was a multi-national regional development fund that could be applied to...
They didn't apply when it was available - the issue of landslips at the Rest isn't new.
The current Rest road was build in the 1960s and is more than capable of carrying the current traffic, it's been well down the list of priorities for ERDF funding during that time!
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Re: A83 Rest And Be Thankful blocked again

Post by Nathan_A_RF »

I found it very nice to see an interesting roadworks situation like the A890 arise again, with traffic on the A83 now bypassing the recent landslide using the Old Military Road.
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Re: A83 Rest And Be Thankful blocked again

Post by ForestChav »

It does look (from GSV as I've never been any way that far north) as though it's something that will always be vulnerable to landslips and stuff, and there's not always anything you can do to either predict where it's going to fall or to provide enough capacity to prevent it blocking the road off. Due to the length you wouldn't really be able to install a giant protective fence on the hill side or anything either.

Considering this could be a potential Mam Tor style thing - though it doesn't look to be affecting the road itself in this case yet - it may be more worthwhile them directing any investment at the lower-level roads to use them as a temporary diversion - widening them to allow traffic to use it in both directions would be a starting point.
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