A83 Rest And Be Thankful blocked again

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Burns
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Re: A83 Rest And Be Thankful blocked again

Post by Burns »

Image

Not such a bad idea now, is it?
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Re: A83 Rest And Be Thankful blocked again

Post by scynthius726 »

Exactly the sort of think that EU funding would be useful for... Oh wait!
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Re: A83 Rest And Be Thankful blocked again

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

Berk wrote: Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:51 Although I’m braced for an onslaught of naysayers, I think it’s high time the A83 was improved to become an all-weather route.

Landslides seem to occur with such regularity the diversion is in use maybe a third of the year. I am sure the Scottish government would be able to commit funding to such a lifeline route.

The real question is how many metres and tons of earth are needed to be stabilised?? Despite being in an ‘unspoilt’ location, would some blasting help to remove the worst affected areas??
How big is a mountain? With Beinn Luibhean at the top and Ben Arthur lower down, it would be a lot to reduce the slope angle.

I'm no engineer - a massive drainage scheme might work - but half a mountain?
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Re: A83 Rest And Be Thankful blocked again

Post by Bryn666 »

Berk wrote: Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:51 Although I’m braced for an onslaught of naysayers, I think it’s high time the A83 was improved to become an all-weather route.

Landslides seem to occur with such regularity the diversion is in use maybe a third of the year. I am sure the Scottish government would be able to commit funding to such a lifeline route.

The real question is how many metres and tons of earth are needed to be stabilised?? Despite being in an ‘unspoilt’ location, would some blasting help to remove the worst affected areas??
It isn't a stupid suggestion in the slightest. It may be technically extremely difficult and not cost effective to do though. Presumably the worst bits already have rock anchors etc on them? Makes you wonder if an offline tunnel is the easier plan.

Although apparently you'll burn in hell for designing an S2 tunnel.
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Re: A83 Rest And Be Thankful blocked again

Post by Berk »

Yes, that’s probably a lot more viable. Hadn’t appreciated how close the road was to the mountain.
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Re: A83 Rest And Be Thankful blocked again

Post by PaulLothian »

Last time I passed through, it occurred to me that elevating the road as a viaduct along the hillside might be a possibility. Although the hillside is soft, bedrock will be quite close to the surface to anchor the piers, and each could be protected by a cutwater as seen on river bridges.
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Re: A83 Rest And Be Thankful blocked again

Post by Glen »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed Oct 10, 2018 13:50 It isn't a stupid suggestion in the slightest. It may be technically extremely difficult and not cost effective to do though. Presumably the worst bits already have rock anchors etc on them?
It's not a small cutting on the roadside that's loose, it's an entire hillside above the road where soil becomes loose in heavy rain. The landslips are coming from hundreds of meters above the road.
The mitigation work that has been done is basically to prevent as much debris landing on the road when landslips do happen with catch fencing and catch pits, where it is possible to dig these on the uphill side of the road.

This video shows the extent of yesterday's landslips.
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Re: A83 Rest And Be Thankful blocked again

Post by Bryn666 »

Aha, so a Swiss style rock/slide shelter is probably more viable than a tunnel. Would still be an expensive job though.
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Re: A83 Rest And Be Thankful blocked again

Post by Big L »

So how much did it cost to get the military road available, how many times has it been used, and what is wrong with it now? Anyone?
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Re: A83 Rest And Be Thankful blocked again

Post by Burns »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed Oct 10, 2018 16:15 Aha, so a Swiss style rock/slide shelter is probably more viable than a tunnel. Would still be an expensive job though.
A good idea. Build a concrete shelter over the road. Over time, grass will grow on top and the road will better blend in with the landscape.
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Re: A83 Rest And Be Thankful blocked again

Post by Berk »

Big L wrote: Wed Oct 10, 2018 17:48 So how much did it cost to get the military road available, how many times has it been used, and what is wrong with it now? Anyone
The issue this time appears to be the severe amounts of debris that have been dislodged (by rain??). 2500 Tonnes - that’s massive in any scale.

Some of the boulders are up to 75 Tons each. They pose a threat to both roads, so neither can be reopened until they’ve been broken up and made safe.

It seems a bit like a Swiss avalanche scenario without the snow. Sounds like not only a rock shelter is needed, but much, much better drainage.
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Re: A83 Rest And Be Thankful blocked again

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Big L wrote: Wed Oct 10, 2018 17:48 So how much did it cost to get the military road available, how many times has it been used, and what is wrong with it now? Anyone?
The old was also blocked to a lesser extent by debris, but now the issue making it unsafe to open either road is three large boulders 300m up the slope which have become unstable by the ground being washed away.

http://bearscot.com/News/8346/A83+Rest+and+Be+Thankful/

https://twitter.com/NWTrunkRoads/status ... 2672279552
https://twitter.com/NWTrunkRoads/status ... 6875232256
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Re: A83 Rest And Be Thankful blocked again

Post by Berk »

Very reminiscent of the aftermath of Cyclone Gita in February. New Zealand had been badly affected by the Kaikoura earthquake in 2016. Geological disturbances had destroyed parts of State Highway 1 in South Island.

Then when the cyclone hit, more rockfalls also occurred. And they had to be blown up to allow the road to be reopened.
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Re: A83 Rest And Be Thankful blocked again

Post by Nwallace »

Euan wrote: Tue Oct 09, 2018 15:37 I can only imagine the long queues of extra traffic on the A82 between Tarbet and Ardlui stuck behind lorries as they squeeze past each other on the bends with just enough width. Maybe, as an alternative, Western Ferries could offer a temporary discount on the Gourock - Dunoon vehicle ferry service during the A83 RaBT closure to provide a viable alternative route from Glasgow to Cowal, Mid Argyll and Kintyre.
Fat chance of that; they're milking it as usual.
Dunoon is the most expensive ferry in Scotland per km travelled.
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Re: A83 Rest And Be Thankful blocked again

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Nwallace wrote: Wed Oct 10, 2018 22:32
Euan wrote: Tue Oct 09, 2018 15:37 I can only imagine the long queues of extra traffic on the A82 between Tarbet and Ardlui stuck behind lorries as they squeeze past each other on the bends with just enough width. Maybe, as an alternative, Western Ferries could offer a temporary discount on the Gourock - Dunoon vehicle ferry service during the A83 RaBT closure to provide a viable alternative route from Glasgow to Cowal, Mid Argyll and Kintyre.
Fat chance of that; they're milking it as usual.
Dunoon is the most expensive ferry in Scotland per km travelled.
It could potentially be one of the most expensive ferry routes in the world per kilometre of distance. The Kyles of Bute crossing is also a strong contender for the title, being hardly a 3 minute crossing. For the Cowal peninsula to be stuck between notoriously short and costly ferry services and a mainland road link prone to landslip closures is not exactly helpful!
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Re: A83 Rest And Be Thankful blocked again

Post by Stevie D »

Nwallace wrote: Wed Oct 10, 2018 22:32Dunoon is the most expensive ferry in Scotland per km travelled.
Short services always are. If you look at buses or trains, a short journey will have a much higher cost per mile than a comparable long one.
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Re: A83 Rest And Be Thankful blocked again

Post by Berk »

Stevie D wrote: Wed Oct 10, 2018 23:22
Nwallace wrote: Wed Oct 10, 2018 22:32Dunoon is the most expensive ferry in Scotland per km travelled.
Short services always are. If you look at buses or trains, a short journey will have a much higher cost per mile than a comparable long one.
OK, but how does it manifest itself?? Is it like the equivalent of a moral argument - “you are carrying so many hundred/thousands more passengers due to the rockfall, you really should be thinking about dropping your fares during the closure period”, something like that?? And repeat again in future, as and when required??

The trouble with moral arguments is they have no basis in law - unless our lawmakers choose to enact them. But there is probably a lot of merit to it.

This being said, I read an article recently about how reliability issues are starting to affect CalMac’s fleet. Due to the hiving off of the fleet due to vertical integration issues, CMAL’s inherited fleet is now pushing 30+ years on average. So this is reflected in a lack of investment prior to separation, and again since.

The article then went on to say, it was harder to repurpose CMAL’s fleet due to the bespoke nature of many Highland harbours and ports. Each one is essentially unique, whether due to geography or geology. This has the effect of limiting the number of vessels that can be accommodated there; and conversely having to operate many differing (and aging) types of ship to operate in such varying marine environments.

Bottom line: if more money was invested to improve and standardise Highland harbours, Scots might actually receive the standard of shipping service they’re entitled to expect. Including lower fares, and increased sailings. And even more importantly, less cancellations - particularly when things go wrong.
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Re: A83 Rest And Be Thankful blocked again

Post by brombeer »

If you now forced a ferry operator to reduce the prices in periods of unusually high demand (since prices are set by reference to a much lower utilisation of the line), next up is a counter request from the industry for compensation in times with unusually low demands. "You win some, you lose some" as an argument to not intervene in many ways seems the safer argument.

There is of course the alternative of the Scottish government striking a deal with an operator of temporarily reduced fees against a payment by the government to the operator - that expenditure being justified by issues on the government's road network. But with a road like the A83, a more structural solution on the A83 to reduce the number of closures then would be a much better investment than that type of band aid solutions.
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Re: A83 Rest And Be Thankful blocked again

Post by paully »

I think the only viable option would be to abandon the current alignment and build a road on the other side of the valley (i.e. 1km or so West of the current alignment). They have thrown so much money at catch fences and the old military road diversion and the problem seems to be getting worse rather than better.
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Re: A83 Rest And Be Thankful blocked again

Post by haggishunter »

paully wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 21:15 I think the only viable option would be to abandon the current alignment and build a road on the other side of the valley (i.e. 1km or so West of the current alignment). They have thrown so much money at catch fences and the old military road diversion and the problem seems to be getting worse rather than better.
Had the catch fences not been there the mess and damage would have extended right across both the A83 and OMR to a far greater extent, so unlikely the OMR would have been open today.

The problem is the otherside of Glen Croe isn't immune from potential landslides onto a road as well, the forestry road alternative or backup to the OMR was ruled out for that reason. There was a plan being worked up for dualling the A83 in Glen Croe by a new carriageway alignment roughly following the forestry road on the other side for Westbound traffic and the existing road for Eastbound, but it was dropped - partly because there was still a significant risk both carriageways would end up blocked and that having a dual carriageway would increase traffic speeds which could worsen the outcome of weather incidents.

The tunnelling or avalanche or viaduct options in Glen Croe don't address the landslide problems further West beyond the Rest and be Thankful either.
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