A344; is this a 'live' A Road, or not

[Brock]

I'm still finding the discussion baffling. The question originally posed was "what use can be found for the number A344?" (as per the thread title), not "what number should we give the renumbered section of A303?" I seem to be the only person who's answered the question.

[Chris5156]

I'm still finding the discussion baffling. The question originally posed was "what use can be found for the number A344?" (as per the thread title), not "what number should we give the renumbered section of A303?" I seem to be the only person who's answered the question.

No, the question originally posed was "what status does the metalled road ("A344") now have". The conversation has moved on, as conversations always do. The question about what use could be found for the number A344 was just one of the things that were raised as the conversation moved on from the original subject. It happens in virtually every thread. I'm not sure what's so baffling about it.

So the discussion about what number can be used for the A303 between Ilminster and Upottery isn't a direct response to the original question, but neither was yours

[Owain]

If you want to make use of unused numbers:

- I think the A303/A358 between the M3 and Taunton should become A30

- A30 from Popham to Upottery becomes A344

- A303 from Ilminster to Honiton becomes A364

- A30 from Honiton to Exeter becomes A35

A303 disappears from a while, to avoid confusing numpties, and comes back the next time we want to attempt a renumbering!

[Brock]

No, the question originally posed was "what status does the metalled road ("A344") now have". The conversation has moved on, as conversations always do. The question about what use could be found for the number A344 was just one of the things that were raised as the conversation moved on from the original subject. It happens in virtually every thread. I'm not sure what's so baffling about it.

So the discussion about what number can be used for the A303 between Ilminster and Upottery isn't a direct response to the original question, but neither was yours

True enough. I suppose I was confused because a lot of people have been answering a question that was never asked!

[A303Paul]

If you want to make use of unused numbers:

- I think the A303/A358 between the M3 and Taunton should become A30

- A30 from Popham to Upottery becomes A344

- A303 from Ilminster to Honiton becomes A364

- A30 from Honiton to Exeter becomes A35

A303 disappears from a while, to avoid confusing numpties, and comes back the next time we want to attempt a renumbering!

A bit of white paint on a few roadsigns in Wandsworth and the A303 could return to its original stomping ground and confuse no one........

[Jim606]

I attended this year's summer solstice at Stonehenge and was able to get a closer look at the old A344.

Old A344 looking east

Looking eastwards towards Amesbury/London the road has been completely grassed-over down to Stonehenge Bottom (the old junction with the A303). The profile of the shallow cutting however still remains past the Heel Stone. English Heritage (EH) and the National Trust (NT) were meant to create a permanent 'permissive route' route for walkers and cyclists to the north of the old stock boundary fence or along the line of the old A344 itself. But, I believe the present footpath is only a 'temporary arrangement', but, I could be wrong? I think the provision of crossing point on the A303 was also discussed, but obviously this hasn't happened due to the heavy traffic making it very difficult! I wonder if EH/NT are stalling with all this, as I believe they have their eyes on the line of the 303 becoming a bridleway, after any tunnel plans come to fruition. Another issue is the profile of the grassed-over road is slightly higher in places than the original road level. On its northern side it seemed about 12" higher than the ancient incoming avenue. I think this extra back fill is there because daily visitors will be walking this way on their way around the stones. No attempt has been made to match the surrounding profile of the avenue embankments or the outline of the earthworks around the Heel Stone.

Old A344 looking west

Looking west the portakabin was only a temporary feature of the summer solstice security team. As you can see there is now a pedestrian path on the line of the old road leading down to a shuttle bus turning circle. The path here doesn't seem quite wide enough looking at the footwear marks on the grass to the left. Apparently, the shuttle bus turning circle isn't big enough either and EH have recently submitted a planning application to create a larger one.

[Norfolktolancashire]

I attended this year's summer solstice at Stonehenge and was able to get a closer look at the old A344.

A344 former alignment looking east at the 2016 Stonehenge summer solstice.jpg Looking eastwards towards Amesbury/London the road has been completely grassed-over down to Stonehenge Bottom (the old junction with the A303). The profile of the shallow cutting however still remains past the Heel Stone. English Heritage (EH) and the National Trust (NT) were meant to create a permanent 'permissive route' route for walkers and cyclists to the north of the old stock boundary fence or along the line of the old A344 itself. But, I believe the present footpath is only a 'temporary arrangement', but, I could be wrong? I think the provision of crossing point on the A303 was also discussed, but obviously this hasn't happened due to the heavy traffic making it very difficult! I wonder if EH/NT are stalling with all this, as I believe they have their eyes on the line of the 303 becoming a bridleway, after any tunnel plans come to fruition. Another issue is the profile of the grassed-over road is slightly higher in places than the original road level. On its northern side it seemed about 12" higher than the ancient incoming avenue. I think this extra back fill is there because daily visitors will be walking this way on their way around the stones. No attempt has been made to match the surrounding profile of the avenue embankments or the outline of the earthworks around the Heel Stone.

A344 former alignment looking west at the 2016 Stonehenge summer solstice.jpg Looking west the portakabin was only a temporary feature of the summer solstice security team. As you can see there is now a pedestrian path on the line of the old road leading down to a shuttle bus turning circle. The path here doesn't seem quite wide enough looking at the footwear marks on the grass to the left. Apparently, the shuttle bus turning circle isn't big enough either and EH have recently submitted a planning application to create a larger one.

That's a good picture of the full moon.

A definite improvement from having the road, maybe the new grassed over section will settle to a lower level in time?

[Mark Hewitt]

I was there a few weeks ago. The A303 wasn't too distracting I was expecting it to be worse although it does strike me that just diverting it half a mile away would be sufficient.

The A344 being a live road would be more of a problem.

[Jim606]

The Stonehenge blogger Tim Daw has recently posted this article about the old A344 running down from the visitor centre to the closed (grassed over section) by the stones themselves. http://www.sarsen.org/2017/04/wiltshire ... glish.html Basically, it looks like the road is actually still 'owned' by Wilts. CC and EH need to be made aware that no restrictions are placed on walkers, cyclist or equestrians.

Wiltshire Council Advice to English Heritage About the A344

The traffic regulation order made in relation to the A344 does not place any restriction on the movement of pedestrians, cyclists or equestrians. The gating arrangements were installed at either end of the A344 with the specific purpose of restricting access to motorised vehicles, whilst allowing passage by horses and horse drawn vehicles. English Heritage have no authority to stop any person from using the A344; they act as agents for the Council in relation to the issuing of permits for those vehicles exempted by the order. Any unlawful use of the road by e.g. motorised vehicles, is a matter for the police to enforce, not English Heritage. Whilst English Heritage acts as agents for the highway authority in issuing permits for vehicular users of that part of the A344 subject to the TRO, that is the extent of any authority they have in relation to the A344. The only permitted obstruction to passage along the road are the formally permitted gates, which legal users must be allowed to open. The placing of cones, barriers and other obstructions in the highway is a legal offence, as provided for in Part IX (Lawful and Unlawful Interference With Highways and Streets) of the Highways Act 1980. The Council, as local highway authority, has a duty under s130 to protect public rights on the highway. Wiltshire Council understands that English Heritage might find the placing of signs, cones etc in the carriageway as being helpful to their visitors; however, the road is an asset for enjoyment by the wider public, and their lawful rights must be respected by English Heritage, regardless of the impact on and implications for English Heritage’s interests in the area.

Wiltshire Council seeks confirmation from English Heritage that they understand the extent of their powers in relation to the A344, and not to place further such obstructions, nor to seek to intimidate in any way any users of the highway exercising their lawful rights.

[Berk]

Most interesting, that. So, can an analogy be made between the old A344, and any other pedestrianised street?? OK, some pedestrian streets also have cycle bans in place, but that excepted, is there much difference??

[Jim606]

Most interesting, that. So, can an analogy be made between the old A344, and any other pedestrianised street?? OK, some pedestrian streets also have cycle bans in place, but that excepted, is there much difference??

As far as I am aware the old A344 grassed-over section is still officially 'a right of way', yes like a pedestrianised street. However, English Heritage & the National Trust are not keen on opening up what is called the 'permissive route'. The 'temporary' route which walkers, cyclists and equestrians now use is to the north of the old A344 stock boundary fence. According to Tim Daw http://www.sarsen.org/2017/03/a344-perm ... nning.html EH/NT have a little extra time (until 01.10.17) to allow for the grass to establish. However, I wouldn't expect anything until spring 2018, if at all. The tourist shuttle bus turning circle along the line of the old A344 has also been rebuilt in recent months which has led to further changes at the western end of the grassed-over section.

[Jim606]

Again, according to Tim Daw's personal blog http://www.sarsen.org/2017/06/the-state ... -path.html there has been a recent planning meeting regarding the status of the permissive path along the line of the grassed over A344 running up from Stonehenge Bottom (the old junction with the A303 to the site of the old Visitor Centre car park). Also, there are some excellent photos from this year (many thanks to Tim for publishing them and to the unnamed person who sent them in to his website) of the grassed over road just down from the Heel Stone. Please see below:

A344 'Permissive Path' 1.jpg (20.34 KiB) Viewed 1934 times

[6637]

I think there are several possibilites:

1) Rename the A303 west of Ilminster as A3037 and the bit of A358 between Ilminster and Taunton as A303. There is no valid cost of the signpost bleat argument as virtually no signposts would need changing to do this. All the signs around Taunton with Chard A358 would still be accurate as would those on the A303 stating Taunton (A358) Honiton (A30) etc. Even the motorway wouldn't need extra new signs as the new freeflow junction would have new signs anyway and the old junnction would be correct to still state A358 because it still would be. The renumbered bit of A358 would get new signs anyway as would the A303 west of Ilminster (because the green primary route signs would have to be swapped for black and white non primary signs)

2) Do nothing and leave it as A358. Absurd but the sort of thing that happens in the UK.

3) Be more radical and abolish the A303 with it becoming the A30 between the M3 and the M5. The old A30 would become the A3088 between Yeovil and the A36 at Wilton. Between Salisbury and Airmans corner would be an extension of the A343 and Airmans Corner to the A303/A34 junction, the A344. East of yeovil to the A303 junction Honiton the A30 would become the A3037, with the A303 east of Ilminster becoming the A3034. Honiton to Exeter would obviously become the A35.

My opinion:

Option 1 seems most sensible, and cheapest. Or, rather than reviving the A3037 number, the Honiton–Ilminster section could be renumbered as the A375.

Option 2 is a bit silly. And it might encourage traffic to stay on the old route (the A303).

Option 3 is pointless and involves tons of renumbering. I don't see any advantages to it, other than perhaps a slight aesthetic value of having a two-digit number for an important route. But everyone is used to the number "A303", so, even if there were a two-digit number free, it doesn't make a lot of sense to renumber the A303.

[Jim606]

I was interested in finding out what constitutes a 'Permissive Path' and how this differs from a 'Public Right of Way'. I found this quotation from; http://naturenet.net/row/rowdefinitions.html

A 'Permissive Path' - It is possible for landowners to allow access over their land without dedicating a right of way. These accesses are called permissive paths. To the user they are often indistinguishable from normal highways, but there are some important differences.
•A permissive path must have some sign or similar indication that it is not intended to be a right of way.
•The landowner can close off or divert the path if they wish to do so, without any legal process being involved.
•The landowner can make restrictions which would not normally apply to highways, for example to allow horse riding but not cycling, or the other way around.

Permissive paths are commonly found on land owned by a body which allows public access, such as a local authority, a Railway Authority, or the National Trust

As far as I am aware, the course of the grassed over section of A344 is still technically owned by Wiltshire CC, but now falls under the auspices of English Heritage. If you excuse the pun, EH 'have been dragging their feet' on the matter, because opening the 'path' would mean free access to monument field which is the triangle of land containing Stonehenge. Considering EH now charge a lot of money to see the stones, any chance of a freebie isn't going to missed by a cash strapped public. However, EH/NT might come up with some sort of half-way house and just open up the old A344 cutting (as depicted in the photos above) which is still fenced off from monument field - before then diverting the path around the edge of the old visitor centre car park. It will be interesting to see what happens, if anything at all.

[Jim606]

I found this excellent video on YouTube from May 2017 which shows the grassed over A344

[Berk]

That's fascinating but once again brings up the question 'at what point is a road not a motor road - or open to motorised classes of traffic??

Let me give an example - Bridge Street in Peterborough. It used to be part of the A15, but has steadily been pedestrianised over the last 40 years. Right and left turns in/out were banned as early as Jul 71. In Aug 75 it was restricted to PSV and goods vehicles (for loading/unloading only).

In Dec 82 it was further restricted to pedestrians and cyclists only. In early 83 - resurfacing began - to make it more ped-friendly. Later that year it was further modified by a TRO stating that it was no longer accessible as a through road for vehicles (distinct from being stopped up). Finally in Feb 85 cyclists were banned on weekday daytimes (which has recently been increased to 7 days a week). Sorry if some of those dates are slightly out, but they all reflect TRO's published in sequence.

I would have to ask, how many of those incremental stage TRO's have been applied in this case?? Have they just gone for the big hit and closed it to through traffic?? What about cyclists?? If not, surely cyclists have a lawful right to travel along the A344??

[Jim606]

Some more information has appeared re; the old A344. According to Tim Daw of http://www.sarsen.org/2017/09/a344 the path which can be used by walkers, cyclists and equestrians will be open by 1st October 2017; as legally agreed with EH/NT and Wiltshire CC. Tim has very kindly taken the following photo of the line of the old road (which is difficult to now ascertain) as posted below;

'Permissive Path' fencing works on the line of the old A344 at Stonehenge in September 2017

What appears to be happening is English Heritage have only released an approximate 2m strip of the A344 grass verge, rather than a larger section of the former road's grassed-over surface. The fence on the right is the original A344 northern stock boundary fence which will be removed before the path's opening on 01.10.17. Note the 'listed' mile post in the middle of the photo https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/ ... ry/1131086 (According to the records this says LXXX (80) miles from London & II from Amesbury). I guess people will need to walk around it which may be a slight difficulty as there is a small land drop at this point of about 12" or 30cm.

[Jim606]

The 'Permissive Path' along the route of the grassed over A344 is now open. For those who are interested, please see video (as below) of a walk along the landscaped section between the A303 and Byway 12 (with thanks to Simon Banton)

[si404]

To bump this thread, no it's not, but it was as recently as last year.

The March 2017 Wiltshire list of adopted roads had the following two entries.

Code: Select all

Principal A344 A360 AIRMANS CROSS TO 40 MPH (STONEHENGE) 2012 409844 142894 411760 142445
Principal A344 40 MPH TO ADOPTED END (STONEHENGE) 265 411760 142445 412013 142357

This disappeared, presumably the next month (which I can't find the list for as they moved to .xlsx files that you need the code for) at the start of the financial year. Instead there is this new C road entry (taken from the current, Jan 18 .xlsx file, but is identical in the Dec 17 one):

Code: Select all

Non Principal - Classified	C506 	A360 AIRMANS CROSS TO 40 MPH (STONEHENGE)	2012	409844	142894	411760	142445
Non Principal - Classified	C506 	40 MPH TO ADOPTED END (STONEHENGE)	265	411760	142445	412013	142357

[Berk]

Whilst browsing StreetView the other day, I noticed that captures of the A344 are still live - probably from 2011 or 2012, I haven’t checked them out on my PC yet.

But well before both the road closed and the new Visitor Centre had opened. It’s a valuable piece of historical evidence, well worth a look.