The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.
There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).
Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.
NICK 647063 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:23
on a slightly different note is there any chance this route once completed could get 1 number instead of the A417/A419 as clearly it already acknowledged as one route.
Renumbering to either A417 or A419 is possible but awkward as both roads have a long stretch at a tangent to the route.
I suppose one could consider Ax(M) numbering options given the route will be approaching expressway standard. There are a couple of reserve gaps north of Swindon that would need a small GSJ, and LAR/access to properties may be dubious in places, including at the western end of the proposed scheme.
NICK 647063 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:23
on a slightly different note is there any chance this route once completed could get 1 number instead of the A417/A419 as clearly it already acknowledged as one route.
Renumbering to either A417 or A419 is possible but awkward as both roads have a long stretch at a tangent to the route.
I suppose one could consider Ax(M) numbering options given the route will be approaching expressway standard. There are a couple of reserve gaps north of Swindon that would need a small GSJ, and LAR/access to properties may be dubious in places, including at the western end of the proposed scheme.
I would like to see a motorway/expressway number. I would prefer M41 but A41 would be fine. Having a two digit number here makes sense seeing as its a very important route.
lotrjw wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2019 19:32
I would like to see a motorway/expressway number. I would prefer M41 but A41 would be fine. Having a two digit number here makes sense seeing as its a very important route.
If you wanted a two-digit number, why not make it an extension of the A48? The change in direction at Gloucester might look a little awkward on the map, but historically (before the M4) this was very much a coherent and well-travelled route.
skiddaw05 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2019 23:34I must have said it before but I'd like to see the A42 number used, with the existing A42 becoming the M42.
We're into flights of fancy, of course. It's bound to stay as the A417.
Yes, it is.
The 4-zone has a couple of good three-digit numbers free; A440 and A455 are both available at present and neither would sound terribly out of place. They would, however, leave a bit of a gap in the A417.
skiddaw05 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2019 23:34I must have said it before but I'd like to see the A42 number used, with the existing A42 becoming the M42.
We're into flights of fancy, of course. It's bound to stay as the A417
Yes, it is.
The 4-zone has a couple of good three-digit numbers free; A440 and A455 are both available at present and neither would sound terribly out of place. They would, however, leave a bit of a gap in the A417.
They could, however, be used for the orphaned bits of A417/A419.
Then again, you could always swap numbers with both bits: make A417 the east-west route, and A419 the north-south one (can’t understand why that wasn’t done 20 years ago).
A455 sounds like it’s in the West Midlands, even if zone-appropriate.
Last edited by Berk on Sun Mar 24, 2019 16:44, edited 4 times in total.
skiddaw05 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2019 23:34I must have said it before but I'd like to see the A42 number used, with the existing A42 becoming the M42.
We're into flights of fancy, of course. It's bound to stay as the A417.
Yes, it is.
The 4-zone has a couple of good three-digit numbers free; A440 and A455 are both available at present and neither would sound terribly out of place. They would, however, leave a bit of a gap in the A417.
That can be fixed by renumbering the A417 east of Cirencester as a diversion of the A419.
skiddaw05 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2019 23:34I must have said it before but I'd like to see the A42 number used, with the existing A42 becoming the M42.
We're into flights of fancy, of course. It's bound to stay as the A417.
Yes, it is.
The 4-zone has a couple of good three-digit numbers free; A440 and A455 are both available at present and neither would sound terribly out of place. They would, however, leave a bit of a gap in the A417.
That can be fixed by renumbering the A417 east of Cirencester as a diversion of the A419.
The section of the A417 immediately east of Cirencester through to Faringdon had the number B4650 reserved according to the road lists on the Sabre Wiki. Maybe go with that and renumber A4417 further east?
skiddaw05 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2019 23:34I must have said it before but I'd like to see the A42 number used, with the existing A42 becoming the M42.
We're into flights of fancy, of course. It's bound to stay as the A417.
Yes, it is.
The 4-zone has a couple of good three-digit numbers free; A440 and A455 are both available at present and neither would sound terribly out of place. They would, however, leave a bit of a gap in the A417.
A434 would be even better.
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums? Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
skiddaw05 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2019 23:34I must have said it before but I'd like to see the A42 number used, with the existing A42 becoming the M42.
We're into flights of fancy, of course. It's bound to stay as the A417.
Yes, it is.
The 4-zone has a couple of good three-digit numbers free; A440 and A455 are both available at present and neither would sound terribly out of place. They would, however, leave a bit of a gap in the A417.
That can be fixed by renumbering the A417 east of Cirencester as a diversion of the A419.
SABRE Wiki (where else?) tells us that from Cirencester to Gloucester was originally A419. This changed in 1935 for reasons unknown today, and A419 was sent along its present route to Stroud, while A417, which only reached Cirencester from Shillingford, was extended over its former route and beyond to Hope-under-Dinmore. Why they didn't extend A419 over that route and send A417 to Stroud we can only guess.
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums? Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
You could be forgiven for thinking that the boundary between zone 3 and zone 4 runs along the M4 in Wiltshire, rather than the A4. The reason for this is that both the A419, which started in Hungerford on the A4, and the A429, which started in Chippenham on the A4 have both been cropped so they start on the M4.
The A419 used to follow the line of the B4192 between Hungerford and Swindon
Chris5156 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 24, 2019 16:24
Yes, it is.
The 4-zone has a couple of good three-digit numbers free; A440 and A455 are both available at present and neither would sound terribly out of place. They would, however, leave a bit of a gap in the A417.
That can be fixed by renumbering the A417 east of Cirencester as a diversion of the A419.
SABRE Wiki (where else?) tells us that from Cirencester to Gloucester was originally A419. This changed in 1935 for reasons unknown today, and A419 was sent along its present route to Stroud, while A417, which only reached Cirencester from Shillingford, was extended over its former route and beyond to Hope-under-Dinmore. Why they didn't extend A419 over that route and send A417 to Stroud we can only guess.
Good point so it would make sense to downgrade the Ciren to Stroud route to a 4 digit A road starting with a 4 and the Swindon to Gloucester be the A419. The A417 would become two severed bits unless the quietest bit was also downgraded to a 4 digit A road beginning with a 4.
You could be forgiven for thinking that the boundary between zone 3 and zone 4 runs along the M4 in Wiltshire, rather than the A4. The reason for this is that both the A419, which started in Hungerford on the A4, and the A429, which started in Chippenham on the A4 have both been cropped so they start on the M4.
The A419 used to follow the line of the B4192 between Hungerford and Swindon
No, like I said, the A417 can be the east-west route, and the A419 the north-south one. It’s perfectly complementary with the road network we’ve already got, too.
Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:35A434 would be even better.
That's what to call the A34 near Oxford bypassed by the E-W Expressway. But yes, I guess the A434 is very close to its original home if it was used on the Swindon-Gloucester corridor.
Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:41SABRE Wiki (where else?) tells us that from Cirencester to Gloucester was originally A419. This changed in 1935 for reasons unknown today, and A419 was sent along its present route to Stroud, while A417, which only reached Cirencester from Shillingford, was extended over its former route and beyond to Hope-under-Dinmore. Why they didn't extend A419 over that route and send A417 to Stroud we can only guess.
Pretty sure it was about creating a one-number Reading (or near enough)-Gloucester route so that there were 2 London-Gloucester routes (see also the A423 extension south of Oxford - which ate chunks of the A42 and A415 to create an A4-Oxford route). That might have been from the actual 1935 document.
The bit north of Gloucester was later - it's there by '39, but wasn't there in '36.
"“Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations" Thomas Jefferson
You could be forgiven for thinking that the boundary between zone 3 and zone 4 runs along the M4 in Wiltshire, rather than the A4. The reason for this is that both the A419, which started in Hungerford on the A4, and the A429, which started in Chippenham on the A4 have both been cropped so they start on the M4.
The A419 used to follow the line of the B4192 between Hungerford and Swindon
Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:35A434 would be even better.
That's what to call the A34 near Oxford bypassed by the E-W Expressway.
It would have been a better number for the A34 bypassed by M40 than A3400.
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums? Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
Always thought A46 was a good number for this road. Could be swapped with the A419 or the current A46 given a different number if this causes problems.
Richardf wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2019 17:03
Always thought A46 was a good number for this road. Could be swapped with the A419 or the current A46 given a different number if this causes problems.
That's bonkers. The A46 runs NE to SW.
The Swindon - M5 road does need re-numbering. Giving new drivers a brief route description to Swindon went 'M1,M42,M5 then that A417/419 or is it A419/417 ? ....emmm, Swindon. It 'll be signed from the M5'. (Yes that way was quicker than A43/A34/A420).
Surely the simplest solution is renumber the whole of this M4/M5 link as an extension of the A346 which needlessly terminates at M4/J15 - that way:
A417 doesn't parallel itself north of and through Cirencester, nor the N/S and E/W branches cross without a junction
A419 terminates neatly on the A346
Actually, taking this a step further, renumber the A338 (south of Burbage) as the A346 and you have a continuous number from the M5 through to the A303 (and onwards to Salisbury) and Bournemouth - although I accept that upgrading this to HQDC might be tricky, as it passes through two Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty
I suppose there’s nothing to stop it from becoming an extension of the A49 if you allow a multiplex with the A40 between Ross and Gloucester. The southern end of the current A49 was in fact part of the unsigned T44 Hungerford - Hereford trunk route, which also followed the A419/A417, therefore there would be some logic behind renumbering to this.
I suppose the other question to consider is whether the A417/A419 between the M4 and M5 might be considered for expressway status, including blue signs and an AX(M) number. It will, after all be to a high modern standard pretty much throughout once the Air Balloon gap is closed.
If that happens, I think A42, which I would otherwise favour, might become less likely - would it be a good idea to have both an M42 and an A42(M) that have nothing to do with each other?
roadtester wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2019 15:01would it be a good idea to have both an M42 and an A42(M) that have nothing to do with each other?
Well we've got this far in life with the A48(M) having nothing to do with the M48, same can be said for A57(M)/M57, A58(M)/M58, A66(M)/M66 etc. I think the bigger problem would be the A42(M) having nothing to do with the A42 irregardless of whether or not the M42 was extended over the current one or not. In that respect, A49(M) would make more sense as Peter hinted towards, if we were really pushing towards an Axx(M) number as the other Axx roads in the area (A38, A40, A48) would most likely have their (M) designations used elsewhere. In fact, controversial as it would be on here, I would have;
- A40 upgraded to expressway Ross to Monmouth and beyond - renumber it AND the M50 to A40(M). M50 number can then be used for something really grand like the Birmingham orbital!
- Current A40 between Ross and Gloucester renumbered to A49.
- A417/A419 expressway to be A49(M)
