A417 Missing Link campaign!

The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.

There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).

Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.

Moderator: Site Management Team

Post Reply
DB617
Member
Posts: 1286
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2017 00:51
Location: Bristol

Re: A417 Missing Link campaign!

Post by DB617 »

lotrjw wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 22:25
ChrisH wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 12:47 It looks very good to me. Can't do much better than that with the landscape they are building in.

In a parallel universe this scheme would trigger an Expressway/Motorway upgrade of the whole route from M4 to M5 - there are only a few property accesses left near Swindon. I think that is off the table though.
I suppose if this was the 1960s or early 1970s. Such a shame it would do well as a motorway.
Same as the M64/A50 really. It still does the job, just would look neater and provide better east/west (ish) connections. Also take a lot of pressure off Almondsbury.
User avatar
RJDG14
Member
Posts: 8873
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 15:47
Location: Swindon
Contact:

Re: A417 Missing Link campaign!

Post by RJDG14 »

DB617 wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 17:37
lotrjw wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 22:25
ChrisH wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 12:47 It looks very good to me. Can't do much better than that with the landscape they are building in.

In a parallel universe this scheme would trigger an Expressway/Motorway upgrade of the whole route from M4 to M5 - there are only a few property accesses left near Swindon. I think that is off the table though.
I suppose if this was the 1960s or early 1970s. Such a shame it would do well as a motorway.
Same as the M64/A50 really. It still does the job, just would look neater and provide better east/west (ish) connections. Also take a lot of pressure off Almondsbury.
I've imagined how the route would look in the past if it was upgraded to motorway. Most of it would probably be an online upgrade of the existing grade separated D2, with a new access road for local and non-motorway traffic to use, but I'd reroute the main line of the route from north of Blunsdon to Cricklade, where the existing road still has a number or property accesses and non grade separated junctions for country lanes, and I'd designate the now downgraded former route at Blunsdon as part of the local access road, which would probably be of a similar standard to what the access route would be. I think that one of the best methods of getting round the Air Balloon hill issue could be to build a viaduct, which would allow the road to take a much more direct route from Birdlip across to Brockworth, but this would be too expensive to build in practice, especially considering that there's a height decline of around 200m from Birdlip to Brockworth.
RJDG14

See my Geograph profile here - http://www.geograph.org.uk/profile/74193
The Swindon Files - Swindon's modern history - http://rjdg14.altervista.org/swindon/

----
If I break a policy designed only to protect me and nobody else, have I really broken anything?
User avatar
ravenbluemoon
Committee Member
Posts: 3042
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:32
Location: Between Mansfield and Göteborg

Re: A417 Missing Link campaign!

Post by ravenbluemoon »

SMT Note: The Gearbox discussion has been moved to its own topic >>here<<. If anyone thinks that a topic needs splitting as it has gone off topic, hit the Report button or PM one of the team - making remarks on the thread isn't useful as unlike Odin, the SMT isn't all-seeing! :wink:

As you were...
Tony Alice (they,them)
~~~~~
Owner of a classic rust heap/money pit, and other unremarkable older vehicles.
Usually found with a head in an old map or road atlas.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Ask me if you want to get involved!

User avatar
ajuk
Member
Posts: 929
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 23:59
Location: Bristol

Re: A417 Missing Link campaign!

Post by ajuk »

What I find off is you have that pinch point, that round about with the A436 with the sharp fork, but the original route through Birdlip didn't have that, although the original route of the A417 did.
How is it they went about improving the road so much and still leaving that roundabout in place.
User avatar
Ritchie333
Assistant Site Manager
Posts: 11765
Joined: Tue May 20, 2003 20:40
Location: Ashford, Kent
Contact:

Re: A417 Missing Link campaign!

Post by Ritchie333 »

ajuk wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 02:20 What I find off is you have that pinch point, that round about with the A436 with the sharp fork, but the original route through Birdlip didn't have that, although the original route of the A417 did.
How is it they went about improving the road so much and still leaving that roundabout in place.
Birdlip Hill is the original Roman Road (Ermin Way) and has a 10-15% gradient, which was considered far too steep for some motor traffic such as goods vehicles. It's possible the MOT originally wanted the A419* to go this way, but were advised by local engineers to route it via the Air Balloon instead.

I popped into the Air Balloon on Friday (as I have a tendency to do when I'm in the area) and it doesn't show any obvious signs of closing down yet. Something has to be done about the road, but I'll miss seeing the familiar sight of the pub come into view from one of the three directions. I also noticed the A417 is signposted from the M5 as "London, Cirencester", presumably to stop people using the A40 through Cheltenham.

* The A419 was renumbered A417 in 1935 to give a continuous number to a Reading - Gloucester route.
--
SABRE Maps - all the best maps in one place....
DB617
Member
Posts: 1286
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2017 00:51
Location: Bristol

Re: A417 Missing Link campaign!

Post by DB617 »

Ritchie333 wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:31
ajuk wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 02:20 What I find off is you have that pinch point, that round about with the A436 with the sharp fork, but the original route through Birdlip didn't have that, although the original route of the A417 did.
How is it they went about improving the road so much and still leaving that roundabout in place.
Birdlip Hill is the original Roman Road (Ermin Way) and has a 10-15% gradient, which was considered far too steep for some motor traffic such as goods vehicles. It's possible the MOT originally wanted the A419* to go this way, but were advised by local engineers to route it via the Air Balloon instead.
Not only is the vertical alignment substandard, but the tight turns on the existing line would worsen the situation for all traffic but especially slow vehicles and particularly articulated ones. Online dualling wouldn't have been an option.
A9NWIL
Member
Posts: 3319
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 02:36

Re: A417 Missing Link campaign!

Post by A9NWIL »

Ritchie333 wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:31
ajuk wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 02:20 What I find off is you have that pinch point, that round about with the A436 with the sharp fork, but the original route through Birdlip didn't have that, although the original route of the A417 did.
How is it they went about improving the road so much and still leaving that roundabout in place.
Birdlip Hill is the original Roman Road (Ermin Way) and has a 10-15% gradient, which was considered far too steep for some motor traffic such as goods vehicles. It's possible the MOT originally wanted the A419* to go this way, but were advised by local engineers to route it via the Air Balloon instead.

I popped into the Air Balloon on Friday (as I have a tendency to do when I'm in the area) and it doesn't show any obvious signs of closing down yet. Something has to be done about the road, but I'll miss seeing the familiar sight of the pub come into view from one of the three directions. I also noticed the A417 is signposted from the M5 as "London, Cirencester", presumably to stop people using the A40 through Cheltenham.

* The A419 was renumbered A417 in 1935 to give a continuous number to a Reading - Gloucester route.
In that case there is a case for making the whole thing the A419 with the orphaned bit of A419 becoming the A417.
Formerly known as 'lortjw'
User avatar
Chris Bertram
Member
Posts: 15744
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:30
Location: Birmingham, England

Re: A417 Missing Link campaign!

Post by Chris Bertram »

lotrjw wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 13:32
Ritchie333 wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:31
ajuk wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 02:20 What I find off is you have that pinch point, that round about with the A436 with the sharp fork, but the original route through Birdlip didn't have that, although the original route of the A417 did.
How is it they went about improving the road so much and still leaving that roundabout in place.
Birdlip Hill is the original Roman Road (Ermin Way) and has a 10-15% gradient, which was considered far too steep for some motor traffic such as goods vehicles. It's possible the MOT originally wanted the A419* to go this way, but were advised by local engineers to route it via the Air Balloon instead.

I popped into the Air Balloon on Friday (as I have a tendency to do when I'm in the area) and it doesn't show any obvious signs of closing down yet. Something has to be done about the road, but I'll miss seeing the familiar sight of the pub come into view from one of the three directions. I also noticed the A417 is signposted from the M5 as "London, Cirencester", presumably to stop people using the A40 through Cheltenham.

* The A419 was renumbered A417 in 1935 to give a continuous number to a Reading - Gloucester route.
In that case there is a case for making the whole thing the A419 with the orphaned bit of A419 becoming the A417.
The Cirencester to Stroud road was formerly A4116, a number currently vacant, so it could revert to that.
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
User avatar
Owain
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 26215
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 17:02
Location: Leodis

Re: A417 Missing Link campaign!

Post by Owain »

Chris Bertram wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 13:38
lotrjw wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 13:32
Ritchie333 wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:31
Birdlip Hill is the original Roman Road (Ermin Way) and has a 10-15% gradient, which was considered far too steep for some motor traffic such as goods vehicles. It's possible the MOT originally wanted the A419* to go this way, but were advised by local engineers to route it via the Air Balloon instead.

I popped into the Air Balloon on Friday (as I have a tendency to do when I'm in the area) and it doesn't show any obvious signs of closing down yet. Something has to be done about the road, but I'll miss seeing the familiar sight of the pub come into view from one of the three directions. I also noticed the A417 is signposted from the M5 as "London, Cirencester", presumably to stop people using the A40 through Cheltenham.

* The A419 was renumbered A417 in 1935 to give a continuous number to a Reading - Gloucester route.
In that case there is a case for making the whole thing the A419 with the orphaned bit of A419 becoming the A417.
The Cirencester to Stroud road was formerly A4116, a number currently vacant, so it could revert to that.
Either A434 or A440 would be my choice for the dualled Gloucester-Swindon route.

The remaining parts of the A419 Cirencester-Stroud and the A417 Cirencester-Goring could simply remain as they are. The orphaned stretch of A417 north of Glaws could then take whichever of A434 or A440 is not used above.

But nah, that would be too tidy!
Former President & F99 Driver

Viva la Repubblica!
A9NWIL
Member
Posts: 3319
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 02:36

Re: A417 Missing Link campaign!

Post by A9NWIL »

Chris Bertram wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 13:38
lotrjw wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 13:32
Ritchie333 wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:31
Birdlip Hill is the original Roman Road (Ermin Way) and has a 10-15% gradient, which was considered far too steep for some motor traffic such as goods vehicles. It's possible the MOT originally wanted the A419* to go this way, but were advised by local engineers to route it via the Air Balloon instead.

I popped into the Air Balloon on Friday (as I have a tendency to do when I'm in the area) and it doesn't show any obvious signs of closing down yet. Something has to be done about the road, but I'll miss seeing the familiar sight of the pub come into view from one of the three directions. I also noticed the A417 is signposted from the M5 as "London, Cirencester", presumably to stop people using the A40 through Cheltenham.

* The A419 was renumbered A417 in 1935 to give a continuous number to a Reading - Gloucester route.
In that case there is a case for making the whole thing the A419 with the orphaned bit of A419 becoming the A417.
The Cirencester to Stroud road was formerly A4116, a number currently vacant, so it could revert to that.
Good idea
Formerly known as 'lortjw'
Micro The Maniac
Member
Posts: 1175
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2015 13:14
Location: Gone

Re: A417 Missing Link campaign!

Post by Micro The Maniac »

Owain wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 14:53 Either A434 or A440 would be my choice for the dualled Gloucester-Swindon route.
A434 would make better sense used for the orphaned northern half of the A34 (Solihull to Manchester, ex Brum)
User avatar
Owain
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 26215
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 17:02
Location: Leodis

Re: A417 Missing Link campaign!

Post by Owain »

Micro The Maniac wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 16:16
Owain wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 14:53 Either A434 or A440 would be my choice for the dualled Gloucester-Swindon route.
A434 would make better sense used for the orphaned northern half of the A34 (Solihull to Manchester, ex Brum)
That's true - plus, of the two numbers, A440 has the more important appearance, which would suit a fully-dualled M4-M5 link.
Former President & F99 Driver

Viva la Repubblica!
User avatar
jackal
Member
Posts: 7549
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 23:33
Location: M6

Re: A417 Missing Link campaign!

Post by jackal »

You are basically looking for (1) a memorable number that (2) involves minimal renumbering cost and disruption.

The M4-M5 corridor is about equally A417 and A419, but the 'off corridor' bit of A417 is some twenty miles longer, getting nearly as far as Reading. (This doesn't include the bit beyond the M5 as the number there could be retained.) So while the A417 and A419 are equally memorable the A419 clearly involves much less renumbering.

A 'new' number like A434 or A440, on the other hand, involves about as much renumbering as the A419 by length, but all of the renumbering is on the M4-M5 corridor, and is therefore more expensive and disruptive (more signs, bigger signs, etc), whereas for the A419 half the renumbering is off corridor, on a non-primary S2 with much lower signage requirements. A434 or A440 are also arguably less memorable as they aren't currently used on any of the corridor.

So for me the winner has to be A419.
User avatar
Chris Bertram
Member
Posts: 15744
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:30
Location: Birmingham, England

Re: A417 Missing Link campaign!

Post by Chris Bertram »

Micro The Maniac wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 16:16
Owain wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 14:53 Either A434 or A440 would be my choice for the dualled Gloucester-Swindon route.
A434 would make better sense used for the orphaned northern half of the A34 (Solihull to Manchester, ex Brum)
I would have used it for the renumbered section between Chipping Norton and Monkspath.
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
User avatar
Peter350
Member
Posts: 803
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2018 20:20
Location: Southampton

Re: A417 Missing Link campaign!

Post by Peter350 »

jackal wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 16:45 You are basically looking for (1) a memorable number that (2) involves minimal renumbering cost and disruption.

The M4-M5 corridor is about equally A417 and A419, but the 'off corridor' bit of A417 is some twenty miles longer, getting nearly as far as Reading. (This doesn't include the bit beyond the M5 as the number there could be retained.) So while the A417 and A419 are equally memorable the A419 clearly involves much less renumbering.

A 'new' number like A434 or A440, on the other hand, involves about as much renumbering as the A419 by length, but all of the renumbering is on the M4-M5 corridor, and is therefore more expensive and disruptive (more signs, bigger signs, etc), whereas for the A419 half the renumbering is off corridor, on a non-primary S2 with much lower signage requirements. A434 or A440 are also arguably less memorable as they aren't currently used on any of the corridor.

So for me the winner has to be A419.
Also it would just be a case of patching a 9 over the 7 rather than doing the whole number, so would be a lot cheaper in that regard too.
User avatar
Owain
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 26215
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 17:02
Location: Leodis

Re: A417 Missing Link campaign!

Post by Owain »

Chris Bertram wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 16:58
Micro The Maniac wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 16:16
Owain wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 14:53 Either A434 or A440 would be my choice for the dualled Gloucester-Swindon route.
A434 would make better sense used for the orphaned northern half of the A34 (Solihull to Manchester, ex Brum)
I would have used it for the renumbered section between Chipping Norton and Monkspath.
There's no reason why it couldn't go all the way from Chipping Norton to Manchester! If it did, it still wouldn't beat the A361.

Peter350 wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 21:03
jackal wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 16:45 You are basically looking for (1) a memorable number that (2) involves minimal renumbering cost and disruption.

The M4-M5 corridor is about equally A417 and A419, but the 'off corridor' bit of A417 is some twenty miles longer, getting nearly as far as Reading. (This doesn't include the bit beyond the M5 as the number there could be retained.) So while the A417 and A419 are equally memorable the A419 clearly involves much less renumbering.

A 'new' number like A434 or A440, on the other hand, involves about as much renumbering as the A419 by length, but all of the renumbering is on the M4-M5 corridor, and is therefore more expensive and disruptive (more signs, bigger signs, etc), whereas for the A419 half the renumbering is off corridor, on a non-primary S2 with much lower signage requirements. A434 or A440 are also arguably less memorable as they aren't currently used on any of the corridor.

So for me the winner has to be A419.
Also it would just be a case of patching a 9 over the 7 rather than doing the whole number, so would be a lot cheaper in that regard too.
And yet in Italy they renumbered the original A2 autostrada as an extension of the A1 in the late 1980s, and more recently renumbered most of the original A3 as the new A2.

Why is it that in Britain, doing things cheaply always has to take precedence over doing things properly? Surely if cost is the most important thing, then it should just be left as it is; i.e. a mess!
Former President & F99 Driver

Viva la Repubblica!
User avatar
Chris5156
Deputy Treasurer
Posts: 16909
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2001 21:50
Location: Hampshire
Contact:

Re: A417 Missing Link campaign!

Post by Chris5156 »

Owain wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 22:13 And yet in Italy they renumbered the original A2 autostrada as an extension of the A1 in the late 1980s, and more recently renumbered most of the original A3 as the new A2.

Why is it that in Britain, doing things cheaply always has to take precedence over doing things properly? Surely if cost is the most important thing, then it should just be left as it is; i.e. a mess!
The Italian A2 being absorbed into the A1 made sense because it came when the bypass of Rome opened and the two became a single continuous route. At that point the sense that the Milan-Rome autostrada was separate to the Rome-Naples autostrada was lost, so A1 throughout made sense.

The Italian A3 becoming A2 makes, as far as I can see, no particular sense and is a change of number for the sake of rebranding the road now it’s been rebuilt. Is that doing something properly? I don’t really know what sense or benefit has been gained by deducting one from the number of the Naples to Reggio road.
User avatar
SouthWest Philip
Member
Posts: 3478
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2002 19:35
Location: Evesham, Worcestershire

Re: A417 Missing Link campaign!

Post by SouthWest Philip »

Ritchie333 wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:31 * The A419 was renumbered A417 in 1935 to give a continuous number to a Reading - Gloucester route.
The question has to be what would have been the favoured route from Reading to Cirencester (and hence on to Gloucester) in 1935? The A329/A417 via Goring or A4/A419 via Hungerford? I suspect the latter was always the main route.

Personally if having to chose between making the whole route between the M4 at Swindon and M5 at Gloucester one or the other I would go with A417 over A419. A329 Reading to Goring and A417 Goring to Faringdon then becomes A4417. A417 Faringdon to Cirencester becomes B4650 (the number has already been reserved according to the Sabre Wiki). A329 north of Goring becomes A340.
User avatar
Owain
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 26215
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 17:02
Location: Leodis

Re: A417 Missing Link campaign!

Post by Owain »

Chris5156 wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 22:23
Owain wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 22:13 And yet in Italy they renumbered the original A2 autostrada as an extension of the A1 in the late 1980s, and more recently renumbered most of the original A3 as the new A2.

Why is it that in Britain, doing things cheaply always has to take precedence over doing things properly? Surely if cost is the most important thing, then it should just be left as it is; i.e. a mess!
The Italian A2 being absorbed into the A1 made sense because it came when the bypass of Rome opened and the two became a single continuous route. At that point the sense that the Milan-Rome autostrada was separate to the Rome-Naples autostrada was lost, so A1 throughout made sense.

The Italian A3 becoming A2 makes, as far as I can see, no particular sense and is a change of number for the sake of rebranding the road now it’s been rebuilt. Is that doing something properly? I don’t really know what sense or benefit has been gained by deducting one from the number of the Naples to Reggio road.
The first case made some sense, although I never liked it. I'd suggest that with regard to the second case you make a fair point; had the new A2 started in Rome and ended at Reggio Calabria, forming a complete route, there would have been some logic to it, but as it is I'd agree that it doesn't make much sense at all.

Nonetheless, the point I was trying to make is that while we're even agonising over whether it would cost more to patch over three digits (A419) or save even more money by just patching over one (which would no doubt look awful on a sign - A419) other countries don't seem to be obsessed with the cost of replacing signage.

[Not that the Italians bother replacing signage - in 2011 I found a sign for the A2 somewhere south of Rome that had ceased to exist in the 1980s, and oh how I wished I have taken a photo of it! If I could remember where it was, I'd be tempted to go and find it, taking a spanner with me so that I could bring it back and stick it on my garage wall.]
Former President & F99 Driver

Viva la Repubblica!
User avatar
Ritchie333
Assistant Site Manager
Posts: 11765
Joined: Tue May 20, 2003 20:40
Location: Ashford, Kent
Contact:

Re: A417 Missing Link campaign!

Post by Ritchie333 »

SouthWest Philip wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 22:24
Ritchie333 wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:31 * The A419 was renumbered A417 in 1935 to give a continuous number to a Reading - Gloucester route.
The question has to be what would have been the favoured route from Reading to Cirencester (and hence on to Gloucester) in 1935? The A329/A417 via Goring or A4/A419 via Hungerford? I suspect the latter was always the main route.
I believe it's mentioned somewhere in National Archives file MT 39/246 "Renumbering of classified routes", though I can't remember where my camera copies of that file have gone.
--
SABRE Maps - all the best maps in one place....
Post Reply