Not the M58 extension

[Mattemotorway]

Is there another major route in the UK that starts/ends on two worse junctions than the M58?

Does the M67 count?

[danfw194]

?? most sections of the Edinburgh City Bypass ??

Does the M67 count?

Fair shouts, both of those roads start/end unceremoniously on at-grade roundabouts. But the M58 has two very uniquely bad junctions at either end, with the concrete mess of Switch Island, and the dreadful dumbbell of M6 J26.

[antster1983]

The link road section bypassing Poolstock is now open. The former A49 between the roundabout on Warrington Road near Smithy Brook and the Saddle Junction now takes the number B5386 (from a Facebook Live video uploaded by a non-SABRISTA). I'd imagine the rest of the former A49 will take the number A577.

https://www.wigan.gov.uk/News/Articles/ ... plete.aspx

[Big Nick]

A map of the route https://www.wigan.gov.uk/Resident/Parki ... -Road.aspx

[Truvelo]

I'm surprised no one on Openstreetmap has updated it. That is normally the first to show new roads.

[SouthWest Philip]

So when this road is finished, we are presumably set to lose motorway regulations from another single carriageway spur leading to the M6 (and M58)? With the loss of motorway regulations on the roundabouts at the M6/M58 junction, the M58 will no longer directly connect with any other motorway.

[Bryn666]

So when this road is finished, we are presumably set to lose motorway regulations from another single carriageway spur leading to the M6 (and M58)? With the loss of motorway regulations on the roundabouts at the M6/M58 junction, the M58 will no longer directly connect with any other motorway.

I believe so, although it wouldn't surprise me if by some act of sheer stupidity only the roundabout is downgraded

[jackal]

I'm surprised no one on Openstreetmap has updated it. That is normally the first to show new roads.

OSM has now got the new road, and has directed the primary A49 along it. The old route is marked B5386. Google Maps has got the A49 along the bypass but the (now numberless) old road is still primary...

For the new road itself (which is referred to as the 'A49 link road'), it looks actually not that bad for a local authority scheme, with a one mile stretch of uninterrupted dual carriageway, including a couple of substantial bridges, before a pair of roundabouts.

Unfortunately the planned 'M58 link road' will be a 30mph single carriageway, presumably with multiple at-grade junctions, though the council don't seem keen on revealing details beyond a wiggly line: https://www.wigan.gov.uk/Resident/Parki ... -Road.aspx

The short section of A49 between the two new roads was 'upgraded' around 2014 in preparation for them ([cough] and to squeeze in all the box housing off Manse Gardens[/cough]). This 'upgrade' involved removing the dedicated bus stop and putting it in lane 1, creating a nice one lane bottleneck just where the expensive new dual carriageway merges with a load of other traffic. Another masterpiece of transport planning!

Before:

After: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.52975 ... a=!3m1!1e3

[IAN]

Is there another major route in the UK that starts/ends on two worse junctions than the M58?

How about the M65 in that it starts and finishes on 2 mediocre roundabouts (1 half roundabout) and should be extended at both ends.

[M19]

?? most sections of the Edinburgh City Bypass ??

Does the M67 count?

I wonder how it would have worked as a stacked dumbbell. Shame the M58 never made it across the M61. A bit short sighted putting in an under engineered road in its place.

Fair shouts, both of those roads start/end unceremoniously on at-grade roundabouts. But the M58 has two very uniquely bad junctions at either end, with the concrete mess of Switch Island, and the dreadful dumbbell of M6 J26.

[Truvelo]

The early 90s A5225 scheme is here if anyone wants to see how it could have been

Use the map fader button at the top of the screen to compare with what we've ended up with.

https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/maps/ind ... 14&layer=1

[Gareth Thomas]

So when this road is finished, we are presumably set to lose motorway regulations from another single carriageway spur leading to the M6 (and M58)? With the loss of motorway regulations on the roundabouts at the M6/M58 junction, the M58 will no longer directly connect with any other motorway.

Surely the westernmost roundabout and the road under the M6 would remain under motorway restrictions? They would only need to declassify the easternmost roundabout and the little spur road.

That would make the M58 unique in that it would only connect to another motorway on one side!

[fras]

I don't uinderstand the logic of the proposed 30 mph limit. It makes the proposed new road no better than the existing Ormskirk Road. So why not 40 mph ?

[Bryn666]

I don't uinderstand the logic of the proposed 30 mph limit. It makes the proposed new road no better than the existing Ormskirk Road. So why not 40 mph ?

Have you ever achieved 30 mph along more than maybe 150 yards Ormskirk Road during the day? I certainly haven't. It's full of parked cars, junctions, traffic lights, and things that slow traffic down to a crawl.

Hence why it is being bypassed.

There is more to traffic engineering than speed limits.

[fras]

I don't uinderstand the logic of the proposed 30 mph limit. It makes the proposed new road no better than the existing Ormskirk Road. So why not 40 mph ?

Have you ever achieved 30 mph along more than maybe 150 yards Ormskirk Road during the day? I certainly haven't. It's full of parked cars, junctions, traffic lights, and things that slow traffic down to a crawl.

Hence why it is being bypassed.

There is more to traffic engineering than speed limits.

I have driven along Ormskirk St several times, but what you've said isn't really relevant as far as I can see. Here we have a brand new road to be constructed with, (I assume), no parked cars, or traffic lights, and only the staggered junction at the A571. So I ask again, what is the logic behind the proposed 30 mph, because I cannot see it, frankly. 40 mph should be perfectly OK. Why have unnecessarily low speed limits ?

[Bryn666]

I don't uinderstand the logic of the proposed 30 mph limit. It makes the proposed new road no better than the existing Ormskirk Road. So why not 40 mph ?

Have you ever achieved 30 mph along more than maybe 150 yards Ormskirk Road during the day? I certainly haven't. It's full of parked cars, junctions, traffic lights, and things that slow traffic down to a crawl.

Hence why it is being bypassed.

There is more to traffic engineering than speed limits.

I have driven along Ormskirk St several times, but what you've said isn't really relevant as far as I can see. Here we have a brand new road to be constructed with, (I assume), no parked cars, or traffic lights, and only the staggered junction at the A571. So I ask again, what is the logic behind the proposed 30 mph, because I cannot see it, frankly. 40 mph should be perfectly OK. Why have unnecessarily low speed limits ?

Have you checked the road's vertical and horizontal alignment? Have you checked the FSSD? Have you checked the width of the carriageway? Have you checked the design of intersecting side roads? Have you done an environmental impact survey? Have you done a walking, cycling, horse riding audit? Have you done an equalities audit?

If you've answered no to any of the above then you have no grounds to determine if the limit is correct or not. "Because I drive the old road" is not how we undertake engineering decisions.

If you've checked the plans at all, you'll know a large length of the road is re-using an existing one. https://goo.gl/maps/U1DnMuiHPu4fxEKL8 shows there's an access every 100 metres or so, all of which are designed for a 30 limit because that's the existing road speed limit. Now unless you propose to bust all these businesses by telling them they can't have accesses onto the road so a few Mr Toads can do 40 mph... or you propose to tell Wigan to buy more land so they can build a frontage road so you can drive at 40 mph, I think the answer is "deal with it". It'll still be a far faster road than the existing one by virtue of not having to pass through this junction: https://goo.gl/maps/sDCMni3Cu53V8yg97

But what do us engineers know eh?

I tell you what, I use water that comes out of a tap. I'm going to start telling plumbers how to do their job and see how long it takes before one breaks my teeth. We're quite restrained in how we deal with whinging motorists, all things considered.

[WHBM]

Have you ever achieved 30 mph along more than maybe 150 yards Ormskirk Road during the day?

I did, once, returning Bolton to The Wirral on Christmas Day afternoon, absolutely dead. Then did the M58, fully lit for most of it, all the way from Pemberton to Switch Island and didn't see one other vehicle on the opposite carriageway. Wrote about it here a while ago.

[Bryn666]

Have you ever achieved 30 mph along more than maybe 150 yards Ormskirk Road during the day?

I did, once, returning Bolton to The Wirral on Christmas Day afternoon, absolutely dead. Then did the M58, fully lit for most of it, all the way from Pemberton to Switch Island and didn't see one other vehicle on the opposite carriageway. Wrote about it here a while ago.

Yes, once. On Christmas Day. Hardly a representative traffic day. Even now, at 8.15pm there are several pockets of yellow and amber on the traffic map for the A577.

TfGM's own data suggests off-peak Ormskirk Road has an average speed between 10 and 20 mph. So that immediately means a free-flowing new 30 mph road will be faster.

QED.

[fras]

Have you ever achieved 30 mph along more than maybe 150 yards Ormskirk Road during the day? I certainly haven't. It's full of parked cars, junctions, traffic lights, and things that slow traffic down to a crawl.

Hence why it is being bypassed.

There is more to traffic engineering than speed limits.

I have driven along Ormskirk St several times, but what you've said isn't really relevant as far as I can see. Here we have a brand new road to be constructed with, (I assume), no parked cars, or traffic lights, and only the staggered junction at the A571. So I ask again, what is the logic behind the proposed 30 mph, because I cannot see it, frankly. 40 mph should be perfectly OK. Why have unnecessarily low speed limits ?

Have you checked the road's vertical and horizontal alignment? Have you checked the FSSD? Have you checked the width of the carriageway? Have you checked the design of intersecting side roads? Have you done an environmental impact survey? Have you done a walking, cycling, horse riding audit? Have you done an equalities audit?

If you've answered no to any of the above then you have no grounds to determine if the limit is correct or not. "Because I drive the old road" is not how we undertake engineering decisions.

If you've checked the plans at all, you'll know a large length of the road is re-using an existing one. https://goo.gl/maps/U1DnMuiHPu4fxEKL8 shows there's an access every 100 metres or so, all of which are designed for a 30 limit because that's the existing road speed limit. Now unless you propose to bust all these businesses by telling them they can't have accesses onto the road so a few Mr Toads can do 40 mph... or you propose to tell Wigan to buy more land so they can build a frontage road so you can drive at 40 mph, I think the answer is "deal with it". It'll still be a far faster road than the existing one by virtue of not having to pass through this junction: https://goo.gl/maps/sDCMni3Cu53V8yg97

But what do us engineers know eh?

I tell you what, I use water that comes out of a tap. I'm going to start telling plumbers how to do their job and see how long it takes before one breaks my teeth. We're quite restrained in how we deal with whinging motorists, all things considered.

Ok, OK, you know best !

[fras]

I have driven along Ormskirk St several times, but what you've said isn't really relevant as far as I can see. Here we have a brand new road to be constructed with, (I assume), no parked cars, or traffic lights, and only the staggered junction at the A571. So I ask again, what is the logic behind the proposed 30 mph, because I cannot see it, frankly. 40 mph should be perfectly OK. Why have unnecessarily low speed limits ?

Have you checked the road's vertical and horizontal alignment? Have you checked the FSSD? Have you checked the width of the carriageway? Have you checked the design of intersecting side roads? Have you done an environmental impact survey? Have you done a walking, cycling, horse riding audit? Have you done an equalities audit?

If you've answered no to any of the above then you have no grounds to determine if the limit is correct or not. "Because I drive the old road" is not how we undertake engineering decisions.

If you've checked the plans at all, you'll know a large length of the road is re-using an existing one. https://goo.gl/maps/U1DnMuiHPu4fxEKL8 shows there's an access every 100 metres or so, all of which are designed for a 30 limit because that's the existing road speed limit. Now unless you propose to bust all these businesses by telling them they can't have accesses onto the road so a few Mr Toads can do 40 mph... or you propose to tell Wigan to buy more land so they can build a frontage road so you can drive at 40 mph, I think the answer is "deal with it". It'll still be a far faster road than the existing one by virtue of not having to pass through this junction: https://goo.gl/maps/sDCMni3Cu53V8yg97

But what do us engineers know eh?

I tell you what, I use water that comes out of a tap. I'm going to start telling plumbers how to do their job and see how long it takes before one breaks my teeth. We're quite restrained in how we deal with whinging motorists, all things considered.

Ok, OK, you know best ! Please tell us all why the A555 new section is 50 mph, please.