A5036 Princess Way – access to Port of Liverpool

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Bryn666
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Re: A5036 Princess Way – access to Port of Liverpool

Post by Bryn666 »

Both of those terminal junctions are hideous.

Yep, I stand by my comments. The people Highways England pay to design junctions can't design junctions.
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jackal
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Re: A5036 Princess Way – access to Port of Liverpool

Post by jackal »

Some politicians would like a cut and cover tunnel: http://www.southportvisiter.co.uk/news/ ... e-13560550

The consultation report directly addresses this:
The possibility of providing a tunnel as an alternative option has been considered during the feasibility study undertaken in 2014 and dismissed as the costs to provide a tunnel made this option uneconomical to deliver. We have reviewed the costs following a request from Sefton Borough Council and the indicative costs for providing a 5km ‘cut and cover’ tunnel were between £620m to £1.2bn. The costs of such an intervention would significantly outweigh the benefits and would therefore represent poor value for money when compared to the options currently being consulted upon.
The quoted price actually seems fairly reasonable in the circumstances, though I have my doubts about the environmental benefits of disinterring a tip...
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Re: A5036 Princess Way – access to Port of Liverpool

Post by Scratchwood »

Personally, I'd be astonished if in 2017 such a road would be allowed to be built through a green space like that. And not across it, but directly along it in the most disruptive way possible.

I can see years of challenges and disruption ahead
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Re: A5036 Princess Way – access to Port of Liverpool

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Re: A5036 Princess Way – access to Port of Liverpool

Post by mikehindsonevans »

jackal wrote:The quoted price actually seems fairly reasonable in the circumstances, though I have my doubts about the environmental benefits of disinterring a tip...
The Bluebell Railway in Sussex could probably sell their expertise, having had to remove a tip (which had been built in the last cutting before East Grinstead following the original 1960s closure) during their triumphant return to EG a couple of years ago. But the Port of Liverpool might need more than ten years of collecting "A Tenner for the Tip" from every visiting passenger in order to build the new road.
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jackal
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Re: A5036 Princess Way – access to Port of Liverpool

Post by jackal »

As the HE response mentions, a tunnel would have a far bigger impact on the park, and there is no sense in spending £1.5bn when £250m will do the same (or better) job.
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Re: A5036 Princess Way – access to Port of Liverpool

Post by arthurseaton »

'Access to the port' may be the objective facing Highways England, but there is a lot more to it with this project. Peel are attempting to expand within an area which is far too small for the capacity they are targeting and the necessary external infrastructure required.

Peel obtained planning permission for Liverpool2 using a Harbour Revision Order, but at the same time, publicly stated that no new roads would be required in order to serve the expanded port. At the point Liverpool2, the deep water terminal, was nearing completion they announced a new road would be required.

It seems some individuals or organisations have been aware of Peel's plans for many years, namely Sefton Council, and the strategy they adopted to obtain planning permission first, then complete the internal construction and only at that point, maybe a point of no return, demand enhanced access to the port.

Seaforth Docks is tightly encased by sprawling residential areas, including many schools and Peel have a problem because they are trying to bulldoze their way through many communities in an underhand way and the resentment and opposition to their plans is increasing by the day. The A5036 has reached capacity, according to Highways England in 2017. The road runs as tight as you can get through residential areas, including five or six schools, so there is no way that can be expanded in order to take the increase in lorries, which, by Peel's own forecasts, will rise from 650,00 per year to over 2 million.

The problem with a tunnel is quite probably not about cost, the problem is a tunnel cuts off the port traffic from other areas of land Peel are yet to publicly target or publicly announce they own. As I say, there is something very underhand going on in Sefton, a residential area which would have to be ripped apart to accommodate Peel's plans. If cost was the issues for a tunnel, the difference between £250 million for an open road and a billion pounds for the tunnel could be recouped in twenty years with toll charges similar to the Mersey gateway. The truth is, Peel do not want a tunnel, they want land and access to that land.

'Liverpool2' is a modern, very automated operation, with little benefit to the local area and the job count promoted by Peel is far short of their prediction, as it would be with almost any industry in 2017, due to automation.

'Access to the port' is attracting more and more interest, not least in Peel the company, but which areas in the UK could be next? :

http://www.salfordstar.com/article.asp?id=1761
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Re: A5036 Princess Way – access to Port of Liverpool

Post by Bryn666 »

I think in the north west if you mention Peel without spitting people think you're a bit odd.

Their shenanigans with Port Salford have ruffled many feathers too.
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Re: A5036 Princess Way – access to Port of Liverpool

Post by arthurseaton »

Bryn666 wrote:I think in the north west if you mention Peel without spitting people think you're a bit odd.

Their shenanigans with Port Salford have ruffled many feathers too.
It does not have to be that way. Every region, every city wants and needs economic growth, but Peel want everything on their terms. The current operation at Seaforth is generating countless complaints of both noise and air pollution from several surrounding areas such as Netherton and Crosby. One good thing that has come out of it is people are researching and communicating and the information is travelling further than Liverpool now.

But to get back to the access question, the A5036 or Rimrose Valley Peel want Rimrose because they want access to the whole valley. It will start with a road, but an attempt to grab the rest of the land will follow. But even if a new six lane, flowing motorway is constructed through the valley, the lorries still turn on to Princess Way, which can not be widened and as I said earlier, is a road that even Highways England have said is at capacity. Liverpool2 should not be operational until access is in place and if it is made operational, which will increase the number of lorries leaving the port and if people die on that road, people need to be accountable.

A tunnel from within the port to the motorway would be the best solution, whichever direction it took underground, but even if it was still bought and paid for with public money, it would restrict Peel and their attempts to force their way through Sefton. There is a Judicial Review, with the council now requesting a tunnel, but they should be requesting a halt to the whole plan simply because the area is too small for what Peel have planned, but also because of the company Peel are, as we are seeing in Salford.

Peel are trying to encourage shipping lines to switch to Liverpool in order to reduce carbon emissions, but every shipping line that moves to Liverpool is adding to air pollution, due to a lack of any environmental responsibility from Peel.
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Re: A5036 Princess Way – access to Port of Liverpool

Post by A303Chris »

I have to be careful what I say as I have worked for Peel and found them excellent to work with. What I do have a concern with is a new member pushing what are basically views of a campaign group and belittling a company when the full facts are not known. You can not build a huge development by not following the rules and even if you use another legislation other than the planning act, there are many, if not more hoops to go through.

This is an excellent forum for discussing roads, I would hate it to become a social media keyboard warrior site where claims are made without any justification. If this comment breaks the admin rules I apologise
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Re: A5036 Princess Way – access to Port of Liverpool

Post by arthurseaton »

Sorry, this is an interesting forum and the conversations clearly involve individuals educated in the areas around road construction. My angle was to point out that the port of Liverpool is located adjacent to residential areas, with no way to expand the necessary infrastructure externally to serve the increased capacity of the port, which is probably not the case with, for example, Tilbury. Yes, I strongly disagree with a single private company seemingly given preferential treatment which could result in CPO's and an increase in air and noise pollution across the borough of Sefton.

I did read the previous comments first and found others comments stating that such a road could not seriously be possible in 2017, given the current emphasis on environmental responsibilities of private companies. After reading those posts I decided to offer a little bit more information, with the aim of continuing the conversation amongst the members who have contributed to this thread, some of whom may be able to suggest a solution that is cost effective in the long term with further additional details of how it could be achieved.

So no Internet warrior here, or former employee defending the company, but an individual who has no faith in Highways England and who values the input of some people who seemed to know the area, know the road and junctions, in particular Switch Island, and may have the answer for access to the port, with consideration to the existing communities, air and noise pollution. The area is about to enter a further consultation period and I believe that opinions form members of the local communities are very important, but opinions from experts within the industry could also be invaluable.
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Re: A5036 Princess Way – access to Port of Liverpool

Post by jackal »

Improvements to Switch Island are due to start in February. They are turning it into a five-level full freeflow interchange. Only joking, it's the usual deckchair-moving exercise:
The primary aim is to improve safety for road users by encouraging them to reduce speeds and improve their lane discipline. This will be achieved by installing various signs, a new gantry and by improved road markings.

Improvements will include:

construction of a new motorway gantry
installation of high-mast traffic signals
improvements to cycle facilities
installation of ‘intelligent cats eyes’ - which light up in response to changing traffic lights
improvements to the road layout
carriageway surfacing
http://roads.highways.gov.uk/projects/m ... ch-island/
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Re: A5036 Princess Way – access to Port of Liverpool

Post by bart »

"Successive improvements to the roundabout mean it now has multiple arms."

I think they mean "Successive changes to the roundabout mean it now is no longer a roundabout but instead a sentient Cthulhu demon."
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Re: A5036 Princess Way – access to Port of Liverpool

Post by Bryn666 »

Ahhh glad to see it's time for the twice a decade fiddle with Switch Island again.

I've always thought it was ridiculous that a six lane approach had three signal heads at 2.1m mounting. No wonder red light running is a problem.

They're terrified to admit it's just an abomination.
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Re: A5036 Princess Way – access to Port of Liverpool

Post by wrinkly »

Press release on the cats' eyes:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/inte ... oad-safety

Presumably they will be in the area beyond the stop lines where different routes cross.
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Re: A5036 Princess Way – access to Port of Liverpool

Post by Bryn666 »

Yes, they're like the ones used at Sherrifhall.
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Re: A5036 Princess Way – access to Port of Liverpool

Post by wrinkly »

Bryn666 wrote:Yes, they're like the ones used at Sherrifhall.
I didn't know about those. How long have they been there?
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Re: A5036 Princess Way – access to Port of Liverpool

Post by Bryn666 »

Getting on a good ten years I'd say.
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Re: A5036 Princess Way – access to Port of Liverpool

Post by Norfolktolancashire »

There was a phone-in on Jeremy Vine show on Radio two on Tuesday with a guy from Highways England? and a local protester against this proposal due to green space and pollution. The idea of a tunnel was bounded about but the Highways England chap discounted it due to the obvious cost issues. The argument then started to go on about a "southern" bias due to the proposed Thames crossing being a tunnel...... :roll:
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Re: A5036 Princess Way – access to Port of Liverpool

Post by jackal »

wrinkly wrote:Press release on the cats' eyes:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/inte ... oad-safety

Presumably they will be in the area beyond the stop lines where different routes cross.
Apparently they aren't cats' eyes after all...

http://www.theconstructionindex.co.uk/n ... with-words
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