M181

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XC70
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Re: M181

Post by XC70 »

Another smash on the roundabout this morning, and a serious one this time.

A Scania tractor unit was in a collision with a black saloon car, just at the northbound exit from the end of the M181. The fire brigade were cutting the car driver out when I went past at about 8.40am.

2 ambulances, 3 fire engines, at least 3 police cars and a HATO in attendance. I assume not likely to be a FATAC as they had not closed the road.
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JackieRoads
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Re: M181

Post by JackieRoads »

Sorry if this isn't related though.

I just noticed a stretch of motorway that's a mile is somehow numbered the A30(M) on OpenStreetMap near Launceston.
jervi wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 21:24
JackieRoads wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 21:06 I just somehow noticed a change...

As the northern end is now the A1077(M), Google Maps doesn't show it as a motorway, but Openstreetmap does.

Looks as if the A1077 has taken over the M181 including the new roundabout.

But on Open Street Map - the M181 and A1077(M) are shown as motorways.

Is this "A1077 not shown as a motorway so is the M181 which is taken over by A1077" an error on Google Maps?
From what I can see on Google Maps, the Northern Half is named A1077 and the southern half has lost all name/number entirely. However both sections and the roundabout are still showing as motorways.
You can see that Google are showing both still as motorways as their appear when you zoom out far enough the same as other motorways.

But yeah Google is wrong like always. OSM is always going to be more correct since there are a handful of Sabristi contributing to it.
Ah thanks.
What's the term of an Sabristi you say?
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jervi
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Re: M181

Post by jervi »

JackieRoads wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 16:21 Sorry if this isn't related though.

I just noticed a stretch of motorway that's a mile is somehow numbered the A30(M) on OpenStreetMap near Launceston.
jervi wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 21:24 From what I can see on Google Maps, the Northern Half is named A1077 and the southern half has lost all name/number entirely. However both sections and the roundabout are still showing as motorways.
You can see that Google are showing both still as motorways as their appear when you zoom out far enough the same as other motorways.

But yeah Google is wrong like always. OSM is always going to be more correct since there are a handful of Sabristi contributing to it.
Ah thanks.
What's the term of an Sabristi you say?

That A30(M) was a fantasy change someone did a few weeks ago, it got reverted in just over a day but some of the tiles have not been re-rendered since so it may still show it as A30(M) at certain zoom levels.

Sabristi is the given to someone on the SABRE forums I believe. With Sabristo being the term for a male member and Sabrista being the term for a female member. I presume that Sabristi is gender neutral / collective.
https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/society/sabristi.shtml
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JackieRoads
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Re: M181

Post by JackieRoads »

jervi wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 16:31
JackieRoads wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 16:21 Sorry if this isn't related though.

I just noticed a stretch of motorway that's a mile is somehow numbered the A30(M) on OpenStreetMap near Launceston.
jervi wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 21:24 From what I can see on Google Maps, the Northern Half is named A1077 and the southern half has lost all name/number entirely. However both sections and the roundabout are still showing as motorways.
You can see that Google are showing both still as motorways as their appear when you zoom out far enough the same as other motorways.

But yeah Google is wrong like always. OSM is always going to be more correct since there are a handful of Sabristi contributing to it.
Ah thanks.
What's the term of an Sabristi you say?

That A30(M) was a fantasy change someone did a few weeks ago, it got reverted in just over a day but some of the tiles have not been re-rendered since so it may still show it as A30(M) at certain zoom levels.

Sabristi is the given to someone on the SABRE forums I believe. With Sabristo being the term for a male member and Sabrista being the term for a female member. I presume that Sabristi is gender neutral / collective.
https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/society/sabristi.shtml
Ah ok, thanks Jervi!
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As a wise roadie said, don't make any mistakes in building roads.
XC70
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Re: M181

Post by XC70 »

So another change to now report......

The new 50 limit signs on the A1077(M) have all been painted over with grey paint and temporary - advisory - rectangular yellow 50mph signs have been put up.

I have no idea why. Perhaps they can't get the appropriate legal order in place? But how difficult can it be to change a speed limit?
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c2R
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Re: M181

Post by c2R »

XC70 wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 21:03 So another change to now report......

The new 50 limit signs on the A1077(M) have all been painted over with grey paint and temporary - advisory - rectangular yellow 50mph signs have been put up.

I have no idea why. Perhaps they can't get the appropriate legal order in place? But how difficult can it be to change a speed limit?
I'd guess separate legislation is needed while the road is a special road....
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ManomayLR
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Re: M181

Post by ManomayLR »

So it's back to 70! Yay!
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c2R
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Re: M181

Post by c2R »

EpicChef wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 23:33 So it's back to 70! Yay!
Technically it wouldn't have ever been anything but 70 - the speed limit signs weren't legal.
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Micro The Maniac
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Re: M181

Post by Micro The Maniac »

XC70 wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:52 Another smash on the roundabout this morning, and a serious one this time.

A Scania tractor unit was in a collision with a black saloon car, just at the northbound exit from the end of the M181.
Looking again at the picture:
c2R wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 08:49 Here's some photos, although not much here that can't already be seen elsewhere.
Image
I've noticed a number of changes to older roundabouts and with new builds, where the geometry make it quite a challenge to stay in lane - especially when towing a trailer (or if an HGV) - resulting in side-swipes... lazy drivers cutting the apex add to the problem.

At the M3/J4 southern roundabout, using the middle lane here and especially here is particularly fraught... contending with apex-cutters is bad enough, but the 90 degree bend is, err, interesting!
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SBRoxMan
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Re: M181

Post by SBRoxMan »

So do we know when the road that's supposed to connect to this roundabout is due to be complete?
Phil
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Re: M181

Post by Phil »

SBRoxMan wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 09:58 So do we know when the road that's supposed to connect to this roundabout is due to be complete?
Not for some time - the roundabouts are being built for the sole reason of providing access to a massive new housing development.

The decision when to actually start work on said housing development (and thus the connecting roads to the roundabouts) will lie with developers, whose accountants don't like their company starting doing things till they judge the profits to be made are at their maximum.

Depending on how the economy goes the roundabouts could remain isolated for quite a while....
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SBRoxMan
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Re: M181

Post by SBRoxMan »

Phil wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 14:01
SBRoxMan wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 09:58 So do we know when the road that's supposed to connect to this roundabout is due to be complete?
Not for some time - the roundabouts are being built for the sole reason of providing access to a massive new housing development.

The decision when to actually start work on said housing development (and thus the connecting roads to the roundabouts) will lie with developers, whose accountants don't like their company starting doing things till they judge the profits to be made are at their maximum.

Depending on how the economy goes the roundabouts could remain isolated for quite a while....
But that's ridiculous. If that's the case, it really would've been better if they'd just waited for the development work to start before building that roundabout. The roundabout would've still opened first anyway in that scenario
Phil
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Re: M181

Post by Phil »

SBRoxMan wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 14:28
Phil wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 14:01
SBRoxMan wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 09:58 So do we know when the road that's supposed to connect to this roundabout is due to be complete?
Not for some time - the roundabouts are being built for the sole reason of providing access to a massive new housing development.

The decision when to actually start work on said housing development (and thus the connecting roads to the roundabouts) will lie with developers, whose accountants don't like their company starting doing things till they judge the profits to be made are at their maximum.

Depending on how the economy goes the roundabouts could remain isolated for quite a while....
But that's ridiculous. If that's the case, it really would've been better if they'd just waited for the development work to start before building that roundabout. The roundabout would've still opened first anyway in that scenario
Thats not how UK planning works these days!

The thing to remember is that the politicians in Westminster have skewed the entire system to suit the developer business mates at the expense of everyone else.

If the state agrees to do its bit by such and such a date -but doesn't then the accountants and lawyers will be only too happy to take action.

Developers on the other hand have all sorts of tactics they can deploy (usually claiming financial poverty) to more or less pick and chose the timing of when anything is done (to ensure that the development ties in with when they can make the most money).

Also in this case I imagine that the new roundabouts will be needed to deliver building materials etc rather than clogging up local roads - if the roundabouts are not there then they can't start developing!
delinquentwoody
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Re: M181

Post by delinquentwoody »

Planning permission has now been granted this month for the new southern roundabout on the M181 creating a junction with B1450 Burringham Road.. the planning document and S106 are on the North Lincs Council website at https://apps.northlincs.gov.uk/application/pa-2015-0627 . The developer are creating the junction alongside the construction of the first 2500 houses and various other local improvements to Burringham Road to support the developments.
M19
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Re: M181

Post by M19 »

Micro The Maniac wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 08:59
XC70 wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:52 Another smash on the roundabout this morning, and a serious one this time.

A Scania tractor unit was in a collision with a black saloon car, just at the northbound exit from the end of the M181.
Looking again at the picture:
c2R wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 08:49 Here's some photos, although not much here that can't already be seen elsewhere.
Image
I've noticed a number of changes to older roundabouts and with new builds, where the geometry make it quite a challenge to stay in lane - especially when towing a trailer (or if an HGV) - resulting in side-swipes... lazy drivers cutting the apex add to the problem.

At the M3/J4 southern roundabout, using the middle lane here and especially here is particularly fraught... contending with apex-cutters is bad enough, but the 90 degree bend is, err, interesting!

There’s a good presentation here on the subject.

http://www.teachamerica.com/Roundabouts ... itchie.pdf

and here in the later pages:

https://www.virginiadot.org/business/re ... design.pdf

We seem too willing in the uk to ignore the problem and continue to design shockingly poor roundabouts.
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Stevie D
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Re: M181

Post by Stevie D »

M19 wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 23:01We seem too willing in the uk to ignore the problem and continue to design shockingly poor roundabouts.
The biggest problem being that we predicate the design on maximising theoretical capacity, well beyond (a) what is needed for the road, and (2) what is achievable in practice, leading to completely unnecessary and counterproductive multi-lane roundabouts. And so you get gems like this one on the A169 near Malton, built just a few years ago, which has a left-turn lane that is barely long enough for a couple of cars: https://goo.gl/maps/Zj9jvjvXqb6ywAzS7, and which in practice just serves to provide more width for people going on to straight-line it.

We need to scrap this approach, and for small roundabouts make it absolutely clear that there is a single-lane entry and a single-lane circulation, and if this imposes an occasional penalty of a couple of seconds on some drivers that is significantly less penalty than that caused by the inevitable accidents that we get with a badly designed roundabout.
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Bryn666
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Re: M181

Post by Bryn666 »

Stevie D wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 13:24
M19 wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 23:01We seem too willing in the uk to ignore the problem and continue to design shockingly poor roundabouts.
The biggest problem being that we predicate the design on maximising theoretical capacity, well beyond (a) what is needed for the road, and (2) what is achievable in practice, leading to completely unnecessary and counterproductive multi-lane roundabouts. And so you get gems like this one on the A169 near Malton, built just a few years ago, which has a left-turn lane that is barely long enough for a couple of cars: https://goo.gl/maps/Zj9jvjvXqb6ywAzS7, and which in practice just serves to provide more width for people going on to straight-line it.

We need to scrap this approach, and for small roundabouts make it absolutely clear that there is a single-lane entry and a single-lane circulation, and if this imposes an occasional penalty of a couple of seconds on some drivers that is significantly less penalty than that caused by the inevitable accidents that we get with a badly designed roundabout.
That would require the writers of the DMRB to actually think beyond PCUs and spreadsheets, so very unlikely. They deal entirely in theoretical situations where everyone is a robot that does exactly what their required inputs demand.
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jgharston
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Re: M181

Post by jgharston »

Stevie D wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 13:24And so you get gems like this one on the A169 near Malton, built just a few years ago, which has a left-turn lane that is barely long enough for a couple of cars: https://goo.gl/maps/Zj9jvjvXqb6ywAzS7, and which in practice just serves to provide more width for people going on to straight-line it.
That's exactly the one I was going to post, particularly in relation to how the entry lanes conspire to force you to enter the roundabout at the wrong angle.
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c2R
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Re: M181

Post by c2R »

Here's some legal tidying relating to the scheme: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/202 ... ction/made
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Re: M181

Post by Chris56000 »

So would I be correct in saying that the southern roundabout intended for the B1450 Burringham Lane (as built) would terminate the motorway regulations and Brumby Common Lane roundabout be simply part of the A1077 itself?

If that's the case, then N.H. ought to resign Junction 3 on the M180 as simply "A1077 (A18)".

Chris Williams
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