M181

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iansergeant
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Re: M181

Post by iansergeant » Sun Sep 03, 2017 01:45

Truvelo wrote:Looks like there's two roundabouts planned for the M181 :@

http://nlincs-consult.limehouse.co.uk/p ... 5303816732
I didn't want to include that map as I'm really not sure what is being built. However, like much of the Lincolnshire Lakes documentation, it's confusing. The map below shows the initial proposal overlaying the existing roads:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0rcq7mpd657enha/M181.png?dl=0

(It's taken from http://nlincs-consult.limehouse.co.uk/p ... 5292613693)

If you look at https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Scu ... d-0.654413 at the same time, you can see that the southern roundabout is on the existing B1450 from Ashby to Burringham, and you could possibly use the existing overbridge there. However, the northern roundabout is just north of Brumby Common Lane (often known as "Farmer's Lane" locally) which is a tiny road, and the road as far as Scotter Road needs to be completely replaced. There is no possibility of using the overbridge here, and this is the roundabout where the new ground is planned.

It is purely speculation, but I suspect that it is only the northern roundabout being built at the moment. The reasoning is that (roughly) half the developers' contribution has disappeared with Lucent's financial issues, and also that the talk is always of a single roundabout being built. If anyone sees real plans, please post them here.

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Re: M181

Post by TheKeymeister » Thu Jan 17, 2019 19:36

RIP M181....

Plans approved today (not sure at what level) for the intermediate roundabout to be constructed with the B1450 Burringham Road, de-trunking the northern section and renumbering to A1077, and the southern section to be renumbered as part of the M180

https://lincolnshirereporter.co.uk/2019 ... -go-ahead/

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Euan
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Re: M181

Post by Euan » Thu Jan 17, 2019 20:32

To be honest, was the M181 ever really justified as a motorway? The only real purpose it has is being part of a relief road for Scunthorpe, the rest of which is covered by the A1077. There are numerous other roads that perform a similar job to the M181 and are more important yet non-motorway. From a distance it looks more like it would have had an Ax(M) type number similar to the motorway spurs off the M4 in Berkshire.
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Re: M181

Post by Steven » Thu Jan 17, 2019 20:36

Euan wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 20:32
To be honest, was the M181 ever really justified as a motorway?
Motorways are a legal idea, so they don't really need "justifying" in the way that's usually spoken about. What need is there to allow something other than Class I and II traffic on it?
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Bryn666
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Re: M181

Post by Bryn666 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 20:58

Let's build a bridge but still slap a roundabout in.

What idiot designed this obvious compact GSJ with a roundabout?
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Re: M181

Post by Burns » Thu Jan 17, 2019 21:12

Bryn666 wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 20:58
Let's build a bridge but still slap a roundabout in.

What idiot designed this obvious compact GSJ with a roundabout?
See, this is exactly why I rip on UK road construction projects so much. So many own goals

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Re: M181

Post by ravenbluemoon » Thu Jan 17, 2019 22:54

Bryn666 wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 20:58
Let's build a bridge but still slap a roundabout in.

What idiot designed this obvious compact GSJ with a roundabout?
My thoughts exactly when I saw this. Just shove a couple of LILOs there in place of the roundabout, a la the new(ish) A1 junctions.
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Re: M181

Post by jgharston » Fri Jan 18, 2019 02:17

Euan wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 20:32
To be honest, was the M181 ever really justified as a motorway? The only real purpose it has is being part of a relief road for Scunthorpe, the rest of which is covered by the A1077.
The only reason the M181 was a motorway is that after the A18 roundabout there's no way for restricted traffic travelling southwards to escape, so it had to be under motorway restrictions all the way. If there had been a junction at the B1450 bridge as suggested upthread, it could have been all-purpose all the way, and then motorway-regs slip roads to the M180.

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Re: M181

Post by M4Simon » Fri Jan 18, 2019 07:50

Bryn666 wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 20:58
Let's build a bridge but still slap a roundabout in.

What idiot designed this obvious compact GSJ with a roundabout?
I have no idea of the context, but I would guess a couple of reasons:
1. Lack of weaving length to junctions either side; and/or
2. To increase the amount of developable land.

The first looks plausible as it is only 500m to the M180.

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Re: M181

Post by Bryn666 » Fri Jan 18, 2019 08:44

M4Simon wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 07:50
Bryn666 wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 20:58
Let's build a bridge but still slap a roundabout in.

What idiot designed this obvious compact GSJ with a roundabout?
I have no idea of the context, but I would guess a couple of reasons:
1. Lack of weaving length to junctions either side; and/or
2. To increase the amount of developable land.

The first looks plausible as it is only 500m to the M180.

Simon
There was really no need to provide the bridge then. The flows there are going to be crossing over each other at so many points that it is a recipe for disaster.

Another typical developer led scheme which will generate congestion and fuel the view that new roads always cause problems.

Even if weaving is the reason for this design that does not change the fact it is a terribly inefficient design and even worse for NMUs that have to traverse at least two large roundabouts to get anywhere.

Abysmal.
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Re: M181

Post by MotorwayPlannerM21 » Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:44

I don't understand why they're building a new bridge. Unless there are some structural issues, I fail to see the point as the replacement looks to be only two lanes as well, so it can't be capacity.

At this rate they might as well just "improve" the junction with the M180 as well by converting it into a dumbbell. In fact, if they'd just done that, and built a link to the B1540 (going through the development, I think), they wouldn't even need the three other roundabouts.
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Re: M181

Post by Owain » Fri Jan 18, 2019 15:29

Euan wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 20:32
To be honest, was the M181 ever really justified as a motorway? The only real purpose it has is being part of a relief road for Scunthorpe, the rest of which is covered by the A1077. There are numerous other roads that perform a similar job to the M181 and are more important yet non-motorway. From a distance it looks more like it would have had an Ax(M) type number similar to the motorway spurs off the M4 in Berkshire.
If it had been built in some other parts of the country, the entire M180 east of J1 might simply have been built as a dual carriageway and taken the A18 number.

I've only driven it a few times, but there was hardly any traffic on it when I did. In fact when I drove it in the middle of the night, the only other vehicle I saw was a police car sitting on a bridge above my carriageway (who didn't appear to be bothered about the speed I was doing).

There is surely more case for the dualled sections of the A1, A11, A12, A14, A27, A30, A40/A449, A417/A419 and A50 to have been built to the standard of the M180 and given blue signs!
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Re: M181

Post by Johnathan404 » Fri Jan 18, 2019 16:08

I wonder if the other problem with the terrible non-GSJ is that they wrongly believed you can't have a compact GSJ at the end of a motorway.

Do standards dictate that motorway off-slips have to be a particular standard?
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Bryn666
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Re: M181

Post by Bryn666 » Fri Jan 18, 2019 17:17

Johnathan404 wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 16:08
I wonder if the other problem with the terrible non-GSJ is that they wrongly believed you can't have a compact GSJ at the end of a motorway.

Do standards dictate that motorway off-slips have to be a particular standard?
Nope. However people read the DMRB and see the default for everything is a roundabout and work from there...

Skills shortage is crippling infrastructure. Rubbish standards guidance is not helping.
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Re: M181

Post by Euan » Fri Jan 18, 2019 19:19

Steven wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 20:36
Motorways are a legal idea, so they don't really need "justifying" in the way that's usually spoken about. What need is there to allow something other than Class I and II traffic on it?
jgharston wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 02:17
The only reason the M181 was a motorway is that after the A18 roundabout there's no way for restricted traffic travelling southwards to escape, so it had to be under motorway restrictions all the way. If there had been a junction at the B1450 bridge as suggested upthread, it could have been all-purpose all the way, and then motorway-regs slip roads to the M180.
Agreed. Heading south along the M181 there is nowhere to go other than either way along the M180. If for instance there had been a link road built from J3 to the A159 near Messingham an interchange would have been required and the M181 would have been non-motorway.
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Re: M181

Post by Owain » Fri Jan 18, 2019 21:20

Johnathan404 wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 16:08
I wonder if the other problem with the terrible non-GSJ is that they wrongly believed you can't have a compact GSJ at the end of a motorway.

Do standards dictate that motorway off-slips have to be a particular standard?
I don't think so!

This one's not very good either.
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Re: M181

Post by Robert Kilcoyne » Fri Jan 18, 2019 22:09

Owain wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 21:20
Johnathan404 wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 16:08
I wonder if the other problem with the terrible non-GSJ is that they wrongly believed you can't have a compact GSJ at the end of a motorway.

Do standards dictate that motorway off-slips have to be a particular standard?
I don't think so!

This one's not very good either.
I present the northbound off slip at Junction 15 of the A74(M):-
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.31342 ... 6656?hl=en

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Re: M181

Post by Truvelo » Fri Jan 18, 2019 22:59

It's about time I had my say on this :@ :@ :@

It's rubbish. The mainline roundabout is so typical of 21st century designs that it's offset meaning it'll become another lorry tipper.

The weaving issue with a GSJ is potentially there so just make the slip roads from the two B1450 roundabouts slightly longer in the northwards direction like what was done with M1 J12. Oh wait, that would eat into developable land, what a shame :@
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Johnathan404
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Re: M181

Post by Johnathan404 » Fri Jan 18, 2019 23:11

Seeing as the M180 trumpet merge is just two single lanes coming together, it'd hardly be the weaving disaster of the century. A couple of vehicles will have to move left one lane ready to access the exit and that's it.

Perhaps those responsible should be forced to watch the M3 J9 proposal. Now that's weaving!
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Re: M181

Post by Owain » Sat Jan 19, 2019 13:41

If you want to see the ultimate crazy-weaving-junction, try driving through here at 5pm. It's just as bad on the other side.
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