M181

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c2R
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Re: M181

Post by c2R » Thu Dec 17, 2020 22:58

I suspect in both cases the wording was initially put forward by people less familiar with legislation than they should be.

In this case, a legal order would need to be made removing special status from the road - the notices published in the gazette are just warning that this will occur, rather than the actual legislation/instrument, which would be published on legislation.org.uk (if the special status was removed prior to detrunking), or by the local council (if detrunking occurred prior to the special status being removed).
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Re: M181

Post by Phil » Sat Dec 19, 2020 00:02

Gav wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 20:46
Did they not try this with the A601(M) to put a roundabout in and have the motorway both sides of the roundabout between the M6 and the A6 ?

I remember seeing this and it was adjusted to removing the M status and having the route as non motorway. They would not allow an at grade on a motorway.
That change in status to the A601(M) is only happening now, a good 30 years after it became a through route.

I also point you to the M271 and A627(M) both of which have at grade roundabouts mid way along.

Technically there is no reason therefore why the M181 could not remain as the M181 throughout even with the new at grade roundabout junction inserted.

However given as this new junction is to provide access to new housing estates and other development the retention of motorways status means other means of access must be provided to cater for prohibited traffic, which is expensive. Far easier to downgrade the motorway to all purpose instead.

The A601(M0 is disappearing for much the same reasons - a development is being proposed along the dual carriageway section and the downgrading to all purpose status is seen as important to enable the development to happen.

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Re: M181

Post by Bryn666 » Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:30

The A601(M) northern section hasn't been downgraded yet. It's the single carriageway section that has been revoked to allow some plank's Porsche dealership to be built there.

Lancashire CC are obviously in the "must have development at any cost, are you sure this isn't brown envelopes talking" phase Blackburn had when it went unitary.
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Re: M181

Post by Stevie D » Sat Dec 19, 2020 21:53

Phil wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 00:02
However given as this new junction is to provide access to new housing estates and other development the retention of motorways status means other means of access must be provided to cater for prohibited traffic, which is expensive. Far easier to downgrade the motorway to all purpose instead.
As long as the roundabout was all-purpose, it would be fine ... it will be a 4-way junction so non-motorway traffic could just cross east-to-west or west-to-east. But it would be ridiculous to have an isolated bit of motorway less than a mile long north of the roundabout that wasn't even directly connected to the motorway network.

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Re: M181

Post by JackieRoads » Sat Dec 19, 2020 21:58

SuperAddick wrote:
Thu Feb 12, 2015 20:34
Can anybody help me on two issues of interest please regarding the M181:

Firstly - where there ever any plans to extend the motorway north or south of the current end points? If not then it seems a fairly pointless piece of road.

Secondly - is it true that the M181 is to be cut down to half its present size and they are building a roundabout in the middle of it to cater for new houses and some lake developments?

Thank you.
PSA
I heard about it in JenOnTheMove's M181 video. Check Open Street Maps and go to Scunthorpe to see that roundabout there, it's shown as under construction.
How would it be possible to make fantasy maps?

Your answer would be Google My Maps/Paint.net, sir.

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Re: M181

Post by XC70 » Sun Dec 20, 2020 08:46

Bryn666 wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 22:25
Can confirm the roundabout is half constructed - at the moment the M181 still goes through the middle but it won't be long before traffic is diverted onto the two halves of the circulatory.........
I assume there is a standard spec for these things, but the new roundabout seems very narrow. 2 lines wide but not particularly generous. Certainly in comparison to the existing terminus roundabout it is going to be quite narrow and difficult especially if you are next to an HGV.

They have been surfacing over the past few weeks and tying this into the exiting M181 surface, so I am too expecting it won't be long before traffic goes round the new part and they start working on joining it up in the middle.

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Re: M181

Post by Phil » Sun Dec 20, 2020 19:22

Bryn666 wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:30

Lancashire CC are obviously in the "must have development at any cost, are you sure this isn't brown envelopes talking" phase Blackburn had when it went unitary.
HM Treasury would be delighted the Lancashire CC are embracing Central Government guidance so enthusiastically.

Development ALWAYS = good apparently....

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Re: M181

Post by Bryn666 » Sun Dec 20, 2020 19:33

Phil wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 19:22
Bryn666 wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:30

Lancashire CC are obviously in the "must have development at any cost, are you sure this isn't brown envelopes talking" phase Blackburn had when it went unitary.
HM Treasury would be delighted the Lancashire CC are embracing Central Government guidance so enthusiastically.

Development ALWAYS = good apparently....
Yep, build build build... doesn't to be anything that actually is relevant or needed, just build it.
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Re: M181

Post by Gav » Tue Dec 22, 2020 22:16

the A601(M) junction over the M6 is all purpose so the A601(M) is isolated from the M6

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Re: M181

Post by XC70 » Sat Jan 02, 2021 09:25

Signs are up warning of a 36 hour closure planned for 15-17 Jan, so I expect that will be for traffic to be diverted onto the new halves of the rounabout.

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Re: M181

Post by Jim606 » Sun Jan 03, 2021 11:55

Phil wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 18:35
A303Chris wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 13:53
What I can not understand is why they couldn't use the existing bridge and build a GSJ. I know the reason why, viability of the scheme will be affected etc, but I expect more from he HE, not to back down, unlike local councils where backbone is sometimes limited when there is a £ sign.
Highways England is working under the same overall instructions from Westminster as Councils, namely Development = Good and to be facilitated where possible. The other thing is the M181 is not part of the strategic highway network and transferring it to the local authority will save HE from having to pay to maintain it in future years. Granted thats not a big saving, but as one supermarket used to say 'Every Little Helps'....
I once took a detour to say to myself that I'd driven the whole length of the M181 and following reports on this thread I am glad I did. It is interesting that this motorway spur is yet another example of 'selling off land' for development, as noted above. There was once a time when many railway stations befell the same fate. I.e. the land that the station sat on was seen as more valuable for development, rather than to have the station situated there. The passenger footfall going to a new smaller station often located further down the line was often a key driver in the process. Think of Blackpool Central, Felixstowe, Windermere and both Bradford's two stations as examples.

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Re: M181

Post by Rillington » Sun Jan 03, 2021 16:21

It seems as though at some point, the M181 might disappear altogether with the remaining section between the new roundabout and the M180 being downgraded like the A601(M) was.

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Re: M181

Post by Phil » Sun Jan 03, 2021 17:33

Rillington wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 16:21
It seems as though at some point, the M181 might disappear altogether with the remaining section between the new roundabout and the M180 being downgraded like the A601(M) was.
Unlikely for two reasons

(1) The junction with the M180 is a trumpet allowing no escape for non motorway traffic.

(2) Amending all the paperwork to make the remaining stump of the M181 part of the M180 would cost a fair bit of money for zero practical gain.

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Re: M181

Post by DavidBrown » Sun Jan 03, 2021 17:52

Indeed - no way that the section south of the new roundabout will be anything other than a motorway, and almost certainly the M181 as it is now. What might change, however, is how it's signed - I can easily see any ADS showing it as M180 southbound and A1077 (A18) coming off the M180.

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Re: M181

Post by Bryn666 » Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:23

DavidBrown wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 17:52
Indeed - no way that the section south of the new roundabout will be anything other than a motorway, and almost certainly the M181 as it is now. What might change, however, is how it's signed - I can easily see any ADS showing it as M180 southbound and A1077 (A18) coming off the M180.
This is pretty much it - the most likely thing is they stop signing it as M181, but there is no way it can stop being a motorway due to the trumpet. That doesn't mean that some genius will suggest getting rid of the trumpet instead so they develop on the south side of the M180 in the future mind... :roll:
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Re: M181

Post by c2R » Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:28

Bryn666 wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:23
DavidBrown wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 17:52
Indeed - no way that the section south of the new roundabout will be anything other than a motorway, and almost certainly the M181 as it is now. What might change, however, is how it's signed - I can easily see any ADS showing it as M180 southbound and A1077 (A18) coming off the M180.
This is pretty much it - the most likely thing is they stop signing it as M181, but there is no way it can stop being a motorway due to the trumpet. That doesn't mean that some genius will suggest getting rid of the trumpet instead so they develop on the south side of the M180 in the future mind... :roll:
It looks like conversion to a dumbbell could be fairly straightforward given the alignment of the existing overbridge - that could be a great opportunity for the construction of some new tin sheds with good access to the motorway network....

Edit - in fact, with the planned construction of the roundabout at Burringham Road Junction, it would be done even more cheaply by just plonking a roundabout on the road immediately to the south.
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From the SABRE Wiki: Burringham Road Junction :


Burringham Road Roundabout is a planned junction and future terminus of the M181 in Lincolnshire. It is part of a substantial new housing development Lincolnshire Lakes to the west of Scunthorpe. The part between here and the current terminus would be downgraded to an A Road.

The scheme was approved in 2019 and represtents the second truncation of the M181 following the construction of the Brumby Common Lane Junction in 2020/1.

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Re: M181

Post by c2R » Mon Jan 04, 2021 15:42

I wonder if Brumby Common Lane Junction roundabout is going to be the shortest living motorway terminus ever? I'd presume that work on it will be completed before work on Burringham Road Junction‎ starts....

..or is the entire stretch going to be de-specialised at once - or whether it's going to be done in two stages....
Is there a road improvement project going on near you? Help us to document it on the SABRE Wiki - help is availabile in the Digest forum.

From the SABRE Wiki: Brumby Common Lane Junction :


Brumby Common Lane Junction is a planned junction and future terminus of the M181 in Lincolnshire. It would meet the new access road to Scotter Road and is part of a new 3,000 home development in Scunthorpe. The part between here and the current terminus would be downgraded to an A Road.


The scheme has been approved and construction of the main works started in 2020.


There are also further plans to truncate the M181 again, with another new roundabout junction to the

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Re: M181

Post by JohnA14J50 » Mon Jan 04, 2021 18:39

Phil wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 17:33


(1) The junction with the M180 is a trumpet allowing no escape for non motorway traffic.
Is this (now) the only motorway-to-motorway trumpet junction? I'm not counting small spurs such as the one at Slough.
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Re: M181

Post by DavidBrown » Mon Jan 04, 2021 19:06

JohnA14J50 wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 18:39
Is this (now) the only motorway-to-motorway trumpet junction? I'm not counting small spurs such as the one at Slough.
There's a couple in Scotland - the M9/M90 and one of the M9/M876 junctions are trumpets.

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Re: M181

Post by JohnA14J50 » Mon Jan 04, 2021 19:47

I have to wonder why the M181 needs its own number. It's just long sliproads to a roundabout.
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