Bus stop foul of zebra crossing markings

[AndyB]

I think that it would fall within the category of Regulation 18, ie not stopping on the crossing unless you cannot go any further and the Highway Code instruction to keep crossings clear.

The reason for that is that while a bus is in the marked stop, it's a legitimate reason for a following vehicle to stop in the zig zag controlled area as it can't overtake. Regulation 22 might not necessarily apply in this case, because buses aren't supposed to let passengers board or alight other than at a stop (subject to hail and ride etc etc etc), and if a stop is marked on the road, those are its boundaries.

[Benny]

That is the exact sort of place where they should have 'cut in' to the pavement to build a bus stop.

Never ceases to amaze me how stupid bus stop design can be, either its on top of a zebra crossing marking or they place 2 together so when buses from opposite directions stop at the same time (and they will) the whole road has to grind to a halt, or they move the bus stop away from the 'Pull In' or Raised Kerb they had made 25 years ago next to the shops/bank/surgery etc and place it in isolation 500 yards from anything of interest.

[Andy33gmail]

Or they make a "floating bus stop" like this: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=hunti ... B618%3B416

[Benny]

I can see what happens here, some lycra lout will come tearing along ringing their bell and knock grandma down....

[L.J.D]

Once read on a bus forum how Tfl were planning removing hail & rides and replacing them with fixed stops due to residents complaining that buses wouldn't stop in all places. But this never happened as the residents were all up in arms about bus stops been outside their homes. Plus Tfl were very against moving or creating new stops because of nearby residents moaning.

I'd say it's deffo the LA that's to blame for these silly crossings near bus stops. Because the above statement leads me to believe transport companies are hugely against moving or creating new bus stops so most are just left where they are originally put. Hence the reason why so many bus stops in London are stupidly close together as if they remove it and it doesn't work out its not just like they can put it back without uproar from residents.

Although I have on one occasion seen a bus stop moved completely away from a crossing but it wasn't that residential was outside a school pelican so I guess keeping it where it was wasn't up for debate.

More to the point nearly all bus stops pre date zig zags and crossings so the LA would of plonked the crossing in where it is regardless of the bus stop.

[TheKeymeister]

Is there really any need for the zig-zags on light controlled crossings anyway? They make sense on zebra crossings because cars and pedestrians need to co-ordinate, but if you're taking the mentality of "everyone's a retard that doesn't look" anyway by fitting lights, maybe it's unneccesary to have good sightlines?

I assumed you weren't allowed them for some reason, when this crossing went in, the original contractors put zig zags in, when they went bust and Carillion (I think) picked it up they burnt off the zig zags as you can see in the image.

[Debaser]

That is the exact sort of place where they should have 'cut in' to the pavement to build a bus stop.

Bus operators (at least those outside London) prefer not to have bus lay-bys. Running to a timetable is bad enough in congested traffic without having to rely on other (usually impatient) drivers to keep letting them back into the traffic stream.

Never ceases to amaze me how stupid bus stop design can be, either its on top of a zebra crossing marking...

If they need to cross the road, bus passengers tend to do so in the immediate vicinity of the bus stop. They won't necessarily walk a couple of hundred metres to a crossing. Since, to be used, crossings should be on desire lines, then locating them adjacent bus stops makes sense.

...or they place 2 together so when buses from opposite directions stop at the same time (and they will) the whole road has to grind to a halt, or they move the bus stop away from the 'Pull In' or Raised Kerb they had made 25 years ago next to the shops/bank/surgery etc and place it in isolation 500 yards from anything of interest.

As you say, bus stops are generally located to be close to those services mentioned, or otherwise to be close to housing. Since many bus services are radial 'out and back' these buses will probably need to stop in the same places on both the out and the back journeys, otherwise they will be placed "...in isolation 500 yards from anything of interest". As for bringing the road to a halt, see my first point. If drivers as a group were more courteous and let buses out as a matter of course rather than the 'must get ahead' attitude which appears to be widespread, then bus operators might be more amenable to lay-bys.

[AndyB]

Is there really any need for the zig-zags on light controlled crossings anyway? They make sense on zebra crossings because cars and pedestrians need to co-ordinate, but if you're taking the mentality of "everyone's a retard that doesn't look" anyway by fitting lights, maybe it's unneccesary to have good sightlines?

I assumed you weren't allowed them for some reason, when this crossing went in, the original contractors put zig zags in, when they went bust and Carillion (I think) picked it up they burnt off the zig zags as you can see in the image.

That came in in the 1990s. The reason for having them on light controlled crossings, in particular at pelicans, was partly consistency, since the double row of studs had continued to be used on Pelicans to denote the area where motorists either must not or should not stop, and I'd say had a lot to do with extending the distance over which a driver could see people crossing during the flashing amber/flashing green man phase.

[the cheesecake man]

Here's another stupidly sited bus stop: on a roundabout.

Or how about placing two in the middle of a contraflow gateway? Whichever vindictive planner came up with this didn't stop to think that the stopped buses would block not just evil cars but also buses travelling in the opposite direction and the emergency services. What happens if a bus breaks down at one of these stops?

[Johnathan404]

Here's another stupidly sited bus stop: on a roundabout.

Or how about placing two in the middle of a contraflow gateway? Whichever vindictive planner came up with this didn't stop to think that the stopped buses would block not just evil cars but also buses travelling in the opposite direction and the emergency services. What happens if a bus breaks down at one of these stops?

I cannot see what's stupid about the gyratory example. It seems like a sensible place for one and is hardly unique. It's less dangerous than the zebra crossings which have been placed on all the exits there - and those are also fine.

The Upper Albert Road example is badly designed, but I'd worry less about the two-second delay to an oncoming bus service and more about the lack of a raised kerb, the inconsistent use of tactile paving, and the bollards which appear to be positioned to make it as difficult to get off the bus with a pushchair as possible. The bus operator was most likely consulted on the move and not concerned about the minor delay to services you fear.

A couple of seconds later I realised that the build-out is significantly older than the bus stop, which is why it wasn't built to carry one. The old position of the bus stop, a little to the west, can still be seen on 2008 Street View. I'm not going to argue with your suggestion that councils have been known to redesign roads to "frustrate" motorists, but they do not generally pick up existing pieces of street furniture and move them purely to be a nuisance. I would therefore suggest the bus stop was moved for practical and not vindictive reasons, and it was moved to the nearest piece of wide kerb so as to cost as little as possible.

Not knowing the area I cannot say why the bus stop had to be moved, but having a bus stop over a junction is never a good start. There may have also been complaints from neighbours about it being used as a timing point, as there often is.

Still, I'm glad to see somebody has kept NaPTAN up to date.

[the cheesecake man]

I cannot see what's stupid about the gyratory example. It seems like a sensible place for one and is hardly unique. It's less dangerous than the zebra crossings which have been placed on all the exits there - and those are also fine.

In my humble experience stopping on a roundabout (except at traffic lights) always feels dangerous. Changing lanes, which many drivers will do when a bus stops here, is even more dangerous.

I also find pedestrian crossings this close to a roundabout are a bad idea. Traffic being held this close to entering a roundabout wastes capacity while stopping traffic leaving causes queues on to the roundabout, which is highly dangerous and an excellent way of spreading congestion.

The Upper Albert Road example is badly designed, but I'd worry less about the two-second delay to an oncoming bus service and more about the lack of a raised kerb, the inconsistent use of tactile paving, and the bollards which appear to be positioned to make it as difficult to get off the bus with a pushchair as possible. The bus operator was most likely consulted on the move and not concerned about the minor delay to services you fear.

I'd hope so, but as the relevant transport authority recently installed a bus stop on a road that isn't a bus route I wouldn't bet on it.

A couple of seconds later I realised that the build-out is significantly older than the bus stop, which is why it wasn't built to carry one. The old position of the bus stop, a little to the west, can still be seen on 2008 Street View. I'm not going to argue with your suggestion that councils have been known to redesign roads to "frustrate" motorists, but they do not generally pick up existing pieces of street furniture and move them purely to be a nuisance. I would therefore suggest the bus stop was moved for practical and not vindictive reasons, and it was moved to the nearest piece of wide kerb so as to cost as little as possible.

Not knowing the area I cannot say why the bus stop had to be moved, but having a bus stop over a junction is never a good start. There may have also been complaints from neighbours about it being used as a timing point, as there often is.

Again I'd hope so. However given the aggressive traffic calming works in this area were done in a brief period the council was controlled by the Liberal Democrats on a "let's spend some money in the parts of the city that vote for us for a change" basis I'm understandably sceptical. To be fair I'm still paying for the 1991 World Student Games so I'm sceptical about everything they might be wasting my money on.

Still, I'm glad to see somebody has kept NaPTAN up to date.

Forgive my ignorance but what's NaPTAN?

PS 100th post! Wahey I impress myself sometimes.

[FleetlinePhil]

Here's another stupidly sited bus stop: on a roundabout.

I don't see too much of an issue with that one myself. Now if you want a really stupid one on a traffic island on a roundabout, this one in Davyhulme has to be my nomination. It may not look too busy on GSV, but that roundabout is on the main access route to the M60 J10 and the Trafford Centre for a large part of Urmston.

I've never used that one as a PCV driver, but not far away in Flixton, another one on a roundabout was the terminus of Bee Line Buzz Company route 20 to Stockport when I used to drive it in 1987/8. We were told only one vehicle was allowed to stand there at a time, but of course there were other, full-size buses from rival operators still trying to use the stop at the same time .

To get back nearer the OP, the Halifax-bound stop in Hebden Bridge has always felt to me to be far too close to the approach side of the pelican - the zig-zags are noticeably shorter on this side. The use of long single-deckers rather than doubles has not helped here, plus the vehicles used on local minibus services that use the stop behind are now much bigger too.

[FleetlinePhil]

Thank you for the quote. I really am surprised. Anyone here with a PCV licence recall this being in the training ?

I also wonder why; the hazard of pedestrians being concealed does not go away because it's a bus.

To be honest, no, I don't now recall being specifically told that, but it was 30+ years ago.

[WHBM]

I'd hope so, but as the relevant transport authority recently installed a bus stop on a road that isn't a bus route I wouldn't bet on it.

This one has been there since the A13 was rebuilt around 2000, bus stop plus bus lane, on a road that has never had a bus service. Part of the A13 DBFO. You will notice there's no bus stop flag (these are all provided in London by TfL, even when not their own service).

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5174112 ... 384!8i8192

I did have described to me once that if you marked out a piece of road widening as a bus lane (possibly bus stop too), then proportionately to the bus lane's carriageway surface area of the whole scheme you can then raid the public transport budget instead of it wholly coming out of highways, which is handy in cases of going over budget. Whether there is actually a bus service there is by the by.

[Johnathan404]

In my humble experience stopping on a roundabout (except at traffic lights) always feels dangerous. Changing lanes, which many drivers will do when a bus stops here, is even more dangerous.

When does a roundabout become a gyratory? It's a perennial SABRE question, but the key point is when a roundabout has a strange shape and unusual hazards you need to treat each section on its own basis. And on that long straight, I can't see how changing lanes is any more difficult than on any other one-way road. Arguably it's safer than overtaking a bus on a typical S2! And if it wasn't safe to change lanes, nobody is stopping you waiting behind the bus for a moment.

If we had a blank canvas I would argue that the stop is slightly too close to the exit. It looks like traffic overtaking the bus would be clipping the hatched area. That in itself isn't a problem, but it means if a careless car overtook a careless bus as it was pulling away you wouldn't need much confrontation before one of them ends up in the traffic island. The road markings are pushing the bus to the right as it approaches the crossing which may be a problem if the driver hasn't noticed a moped trying to get in front. But we are now talking about the sort-of incompetence that could find an issue with any junction on the road network.

I'd hope so, but as the relevant transport authority recently installed a bus stop on a road that isn't a bus route I wouldn't bet on it.

Whatever their reasons for that I wouldn't draw any parallels with it. Bus operators are in regular communication with the authorities about bus stops because of various highway work that take place across the network and somebody would have mentioned if one of them had unexpectedly moved. Moving the shelter would have likely required cones on the highway and a notice to passengers.

Forgive my ignorance but what's NaPTAN?

National Public Transport Access Node - it's where Google Maps gets its bus stop icons from. It was more of a reference for those who know, because some authorities are awful at keeping it accurate.

Congrats on the milestone!

[aj444]

Bus operators are in regular communication with the authorities about bus stops because of various highway work that take place across the network and somebody would have mentioned if one of them had unexpectedly moved. Moving the shelter would have likely required cones on the highway and a notice to passengers.

That's a luxury we don't get with the three local authorities in the Midlands I deal with - nice to hear not everywhere is as bad.

[the cheesecake man]

I don't see too much of an issue with that one myself. Now if you want a really stupid one on a traffic island on a roundabout, this one in Davyhulme has to be my nomination. It may not look too busy on GSV, but that roundabout is on the main access route to the M60 J10 and the Trafford Centre for a large part of Urmston.

I've never used that one as a PCV driver, but not far away in Flixton, another one on a roundabout was the terminus of Bee Line Buzz Company route 20 to Stockport when I used to drive it in 1987/8. We were told only one vehicle was allowed to stand there at a time, but of course there were other, full-size buses from rival operators still trying to use the stop at the same time .

To get back nearer the OP, the Halifax-bound stop in Hebden Bridge has always felt to me to be far too close to the approach side of the pelican - the zig-zags are noticeably shorter on this side. The use of long single-deckers rather than doubles has not helped here, plus the vehicles used on local minibus services that use the stop behind are now much bigger too.

Yep those are bad. I've always assumed bus stops should be after traffic lights not before as in this example

When does a roundabout become a gyratory? It's a perennial SABRE question, but the key point is when a roundabout has a strange shape and unusual hazards you need to treat each section on its own basis. And on that long straight, I can't see how changing lanes is any more difficult than on any other one-way road. Arguably it's safer than overtaking a bus on a typical S2! And if it wasn't safe to change lanes, nobody is stopping you waiting behind the bus for a moment.

Interesting question but that one is definitely a roundabout

[vlad]

I cannot see what's stupid about the gyratory example. It seems like a sensible place for one and is hardly unique. It's less dangerous than the zebra crossings which have been placed on all the exits there - and those are also fine.

In my humble experience stopping on a roundabout (except at traffic lights) always feels dangerous. Changing lanes, which many drivers will do when a bus stops here, is even more dangerous.

Is it any different if the gyratory has a bus lay-by, as here?

(There's no lay-by for buses heading east - there isn't even a pavement.)

[Andy33gmail]

In fairness, I suspect when the large-empty-vehicle-stop was built, that was a short section of D2. The creative use of white paint will have come later...

[BigBazz]

Here's one I encountered earlier this week: https://goo.gl/maps/q3HLUJgYShXhbJDV8

Whilst it's not the most heinous thing I've experienced, overtaking a bus stopped there is not recommended as you can't see what's coming the other way until it's too late!

By way of comparison, the corresponding stop for buses heading the other way is here: https://goo.gl/maps/rriRYFUoK3mne5Bi6