A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

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jackal
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by jackal »

Richardf wrote:I am afraid I am with the RHS and Mr Titchmarsh on this one. Other ways should be found to improve the junction without blighting the Gardens or destroying woodland. The HE are being very heavy handed on this one.
How outrageous for HE to hold a public consultation when they could have just deferred to God-Emperor Titchmarsh.
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by Richardf »

Not saying anything of the sort. I just mean that as usual the consultation has been a whitewash and HE have decided to push through what they want to do, ignoring even the RHS, let alone certain other gardening figures.

But hey what does a few trees and a garden enjoyed by thousands matter in the grand scheme of things? Just as long as Joe Bloggs can get from Guildford to London a bit quicker nothing else matters!

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jackal
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by jackal »

The junction that was consulted on isn't even close to the gardens. Cool your jets.
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by DavidB »

Titchmarsh was talking about trees on BBC London News this evening:

Alan Titchmarsh vows to save Queen's tree in M25 row
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by Richardf »

I suppose any widening or slip roads on the A3 as part of the scheme will cut close to the Gardens or at least some of the trees screening the road from the gardens will be removed, so there will be an impact from this project on the gardens, whatever plan they go for.
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jackal
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

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HE apparently still hope to make a PRA this calendar year: http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey- ... s-13931321

Also, if this article is accurate, the issue with widening the A3 to the south is that, if you do it to the west, RHS Wisley is impacted as has been well publicized, but if you do it to the east, you 'threaten' ancient woodland.

That said, the biggest issue isn't actually the widening to D4 they mention in the article, but the LARs they want to add on both sides:
Wisley local access - Copy.PNG
On the south side you'd think they could maybe send it through Wisley airfield.
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by M4 Cardiff »

I would assume anything to do with the old airfield site would be pending furthering of the plans for the new town/village on that site.
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

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Wouldn't that create a 'two birds with one stone' scenario for a new road through there? Surely better than putting it through ancient woodland.
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by Fluid Dynamics »

I wondered whether they could slightly sink and cover the A3 as it passes Wisley and put the LAR on the top. Might get the support of Titchmarch and create a link between Wisley and the ancient woodland which would be a meaningful environmental improvement.
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by Berk »

jackal wrote:Wouldn't that create a 'two birds with one stone' scenario for a new road through there? Surely better than putting it through ancient woodland.
I think any woodland older than 100 years is regarded as ‘ancient’. Is there a statutory definition??
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

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More like 400 years - just before the motor car was invented.
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jackal
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by jackal »

Fluid Dynamics wrote:I wondered whether they could slightly sink and cover the A3 as it passes Wisley and put the LAR on the top. Might get the support of Titchmarch and create a link between Wisley and the ancient woodland which would be a meaningful environmental improvement.
This wouldn't really save any land as you'd have to provide a temporary route for the A3 while it was lowered. Not to mention you'd be adding £xxxm onto the cost.
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by Patrick Harper »

Bryn666 wrote:It isn't beyond the wit of designers either, after all the A1(M)/M62 junction is magnificent. Presumably that only got approval because there was a failure of a stacked roundabout on the old road already.
That thing was also designed in the 90s, back when there were still engineers around who had worked on the M25 mega-interchanges and even projects before that. I'm not sure we still have the know-how to do that sort of thing today.
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by Chris5156 »

Paianni wrote:
Bryn666 wrote:It isn't beyond the wit of designers either, after all the A1(M)/M62 junction is magnificent. Presumably that only got approval because there was a failure of a stacked roundabout on the old road already.
That thing was also designed in the 90s, back when there were still engineers around who had worked on the M25 mega-interchanges and even projects before that. I'm not sure we still have the know-how to do that sort of thing today.
The A1(M) Ferrybridge to Hook Moor upgrade was only confirmed in 2002 so no final line existed until some time after that when the statutory processes were completed. The chances it was designed by anyone involved on the M25 are minimal. Besides, it's not like interchange design is a lost art known only to a few ancient mystics; Holmfield Interchange only opened 11 years ago so plenty of people who worked on it will still be working now, and the engineering profession is quite good at documenting and passing on learning from one generation to the next. We have whole design manuals that explain how complex interchanges can be laid out.

If you accept that people working on the M25 (final section opened 1986) would still be working 20 years later when that bit of A1(M) opened, why is it so unthinkable that people who worked on that bit of A1(M) will still be working 11 years later?

If you want proof that we still have the "know how" to design complex interchanges, just take a look at some of the design options for Girton Interchange that were worked up in the design phase for the A14 upgrade - not built, no, but all buildable designs to the correct spec. Look also at the elaborate free-flowing interchanges (including a four-level stack) in the Lower Thames Crossing designs, and of course let's not forget that one option for Wisley Interchange - for which designs were produced - was a proper four-level stack which involved threading two levels of flyover across the top of the existing three-level stacked roundabout.

There's so much cynical nonsense on SABRE at the moment. Whenever there's a thread about something like this, someone chips in with "but we don't build roads any more" or "yes but we never build tunnels in this country" or "we just don't have the talent to build something like this". We're designing and building more roads and upgrade schemes now than at any point in my lifetime and I don't understand the doom-laden statements that keep coming up to the effect that no roads ever get built and there's nobody left who would know how to do it anyway. It's laughably untrue.
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by Johnathan404 »

More importantly, the interchange designs on the M25 are appalling! This thread is about how bad the A3/M25 interchange is and you appear to be suggesting the only decent thing we can do is invite the same team back to have another go.
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by c2R »

I absolutely agree with Chris - and Catthorpe - an replacement in-situ of an existing extrodinarily busy interchange to provide additional movements and a new dual carriageway route under the M1, while keeping it open the majority of the time. In fact, I'm off that way now and will marvel at the engineering on my way under!
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by Herned »

Johnathan404 wrote:More importantly, the interchange designs on the M25 are appalling!
Seriously? The M25 has 3 (well 2.75) four way stacks, and 3 other full grade separated interchanges. So obviously the designers knew what they were doing in some places... it is obvious in some places such as the A13 that the issues are to do with development next to the motorway rather than the inherent design of the interchange. Also politics, money, geography and local traffic patterns all would have played a part in the decision-making.. so to blame the professional engineers for what are obviously in some places forced compromises seems unfair to say the least
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by Patrick Harper »

Johnathan404 wrote:More importantly, the interchange designs on the M25 are appalling! This thread is about how bad the A3/M25 interchange is and you appear to be suggesting the only decent thing we can do is invite the same team back to have another go.
The M23, M3, M4 and M11 designs are all pretty good, only blunted by the fact that they throttle the M25's capacity.
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by jackal »

And M40! Maybe my favourite as it's relatively simple in structural terms for what it does.
Chris5156 wrote:If you want proof that we still have the "know how" to design complex interchanges, just take a look at some of the design options for Girton Interchange that were worked up in the design phase for the A14 upgrade - not built, no, but all buildable designs to the correct spec. Look also at the elaborate free-flowing interchanges (including a four-level stack) in the Lower Thames Crossing designs, and of course let's not forget that one option for Wisley Interchange - for which designs were produced - was a proper four-level stack which involved threading two levels of flyover across the top of the existing three-level stacked roundabout.

There's so much cynical nonsense on SABRE at the moment. Whenever there's a thread about something like this, someone chips in with "but we don't build roads any more" or "yes but we never build tunnels in this country" or "we just don't have the talent to build something like this". We're designing and building more roads and upgrade schemes now than at any point in my lifetime and I don't understand the doom-laden statements that keep coming up to the effect that no roads ever get built and there's nobody left who would know how to do it anyway. It's laughably untrue.
Had to be said :applause:
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by ais523 »

Berk wrote:
jackal wrote:Wouldn't that create a 'two birds with one stone' scenario for a new road through there? Surely better than putting it through ancient woodland.
I think any woodland older than 100 years is regarded as ‘ancient’. Is there a statutory definition??
Present since 1600 (or 1750 in Scotland). The assumption is that any "artificial" woodland would have been planted some time later than that.
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