A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

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fras
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by fras » Wed Nov 22, 2017 22:57

There's so much cynical nonsense on SABRE at the moment. Whenever there's a thread about something like this, someone chips in with "but we don't build roads any more" or "yes but we never build tunnels in this country" or "we just don't have the talent to build something like this". We're designing and building more roads and upgrade schemes now than at any point in my lifetime and I don't understand the doom-laden statements that keep coming up to the effect that no roads ever get built and there's nobody left who would know how to do it anyway. It's laughably untrue.
Chris, I am sure you are right, and that the engineers are indeed out there. Trouble is those in charge of the dosh seem to have a complete paucity of ambition and funding has been extremely sparse in recent decades. I do now see a stirring of activity, road and rail that I haven't seen for many years, certainly since Kenneth Clarke stated, as Chancellor of the Exchequer in the Major government that they were not going to build any more roads as they only filled up with traffic. There is a very big rail programme as well as road starting up.

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lefthandedspanner
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by lefthandedspanner » Thu Nov 23, 2017 01:12

Johnathan404 wrote:More importantly, the interchange designs on the M25 are appalling! This thread is about how bad the A3/M25 interchange is and you appear to be suggesting the only decent thing we can do is invite the same team back to have another go.
On the contrary, there's nothing on the M25 like Cherwell Valley Interchange (pre-rebuild) or the Bredbury scissors, which are textbook examples of shockingly bad junction design.

Glom
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by Glom » Thu Nov 23, 2017 13:10

jackal wrote:And M40! Maybe my favourite as it's relatively simple in structural terms for what it does.
Chris5156 wrote:If you want proof that we still have the "know how" to design complex interchanges, just take a look at some of the design options for Girton Interchange that were worked up in the design phase for the A14 upgrade - not built, no, but all buildable designs to the correct spec. Look also at the elaborate free-flowing interchanges (including a four-level stack) in the Lower Thames Crossing designs, and of course let's not forget that one option for Wisley Interchange - for which designs were produced - was a proper four-level stack which involved threading two levels of flyover across the top of the existing three-level stacked roundabout.

There's so much cynical nonsense on SABRE at the moment. Whenever there's a thread about something like this, someone chips in with "but we don't build roads any more" or "yes but we never build tunnels in this country" or "we just don't have the talent to build something like this". We're designing and building more roads and upgrade schemes now than at any point in my lifetime and I don't understand the doom-laden statements that keep coming up to the effect that no roads ever get built and there's nobody left who would know how to do it anyway. It's laughably untrue.
Had to be said :applause:
Yes, it is nice. Shame there's not more capacity on the M25 though to stop it being a pinch point.

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Johnathan404
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by Johnathan404 » Thu Nov 23, 2017 15:42

Chris5156 wrote:If you want proof that we still have the "know how" to design complex interchanges, just take a look at some of the design options for Girton Interchange that were worked up in the design phase for the A14 upgrade - not built, no, but all buildable designs to the correct spec. Look also at the elaborate free-flowing interchanges (including a four-level stack) in the Lower Thames Crossing designs, and of course let's not forget that one option for Wisley Interchange - for which designs were produced - was a proper four-level stack which involved threading two levels of flyover across the top of the existing three-level stacked roundabout.
You missed my favourite one, M42 J6, with the engineering comment:
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jackal
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by jackal » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:06


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Johnathan404
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by Johnathan404 » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:17

On page 1 of this thread I wrote:When I opened this thread I was expecting it to be eleven months of work to build four left-turn filter lanes... I'm now convinced.
A four level stack or even half of one was always going to be an impractical pipe dream.

An enlarged roundabout is not exciting and it is not efficient but it is a marginal improvement and buildable.
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ChrisH
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by ChrisH » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:29

Unbelievable.

The assessment report admits that the scheme as proposed will run out of capacity 14 years after opening (2037, following 2023 opening), and yet to save £35m we will be saddled with a signalised roundabout at one of the nation's most important interchanges for decades to come.

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Chris5156
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by Chris5156 » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:34

Well that's just the most appalling waste of time and money on design and consultation work in order to decide on building a different version of what's already there.

What a joke.

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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by A320Driver » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:36

Quite simply, unbelievable.

In any other country this would be regarded as totally inadequate solution at one of the major strategic junctions in the South East.

I give up.....
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jackal
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by jackal » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:37

Johnathan404 wrote:
On page 1 of this thread I wrote:When I opened this thread I was expecting it to be eleven months of work to build four left-turn filter lanes... I'm now convinced.
A four level stack or even half of one was always going to be an impractical pipe dream.

An enlarged roundabout is not exciting and it is not efficient but it is a marginal improvement and buildable.
We'll see. The roundabout got only 29% support (the four-level option got 64%). That's sub-Chichester levels of support.

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Chris5156
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by Chris5156 » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:39

jackal wrote:
Johnathan404 wrote:A four level stack or even half of one was always going to be an impractical pipe dream.
An enlarged roundabout is not exciting and it is not efficient but it is a marginal improvement and buildable.
We'll see. The roundabout got only 29% support (the four-level option got 64%). That's sub-Chichester levels of support.
What's your take? Do you think they're worried about the environmental battle and opting for the scheme with the smallest footprint?

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jackal
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by jackal » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:46

That and cost, given the HE deficit.

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mapboy
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by mapboy » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:56

Chris5156 wrote:What's your take? Do you think they're worried about the environmental battle and opting for the scheme with the smallest footprint?
Without wishing to sound like I'm making sweeping assumptions here, I do detect the distinct whiff of nimyism from the locals, as looking at the report statistics nearly a third of respondants are over 65 and the report freely aknowledges that a large number of responses are from people who do not even use the junction, just living nearby. For such a major infrastructure project that is effectively nationally important, such concerns should not have overriding priority.

What a colossal waste of money into studies and designs to merely kick the can down the road for another 15 years. Farce is the word that comes to mind.

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Bryn666
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by Bryn666 » Wed Nov 29, 2017 13:04

Let's have a review of a review....

Spent the missing £35m there.
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Truvelo
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by Truvelo » Wed Nov 29, 2017 15:15

Why not save an additional £35m by just adding left turn filter lanes to the existing roundabout without having to build any new bridges.
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jackal
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by jackal » Wed Nov 29, 2017 18:22

That would save a lot more than £35m.

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c2R
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by c2R » Wed Nov 29, 2017 19:23

They'd have been better off retracting all the options and going back to the design phase again ...
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Bryn666
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by Bryn666 » Wed Nov 29, 2017 20:05

It certainly will be a massive amount of disruption for little gain. However I imagine the RHS is very pleased.
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Fluid Dynamics
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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by Fluid Dynamics » Wed Nov 29, 2017 20:09

Awful, so all the money has been spent on the local access improvements at the cost of the improvements to Junction 10.

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Re: A3/M25 Wisley Upgrade

Post by Rubberduck » Wed Nov 29, 2017 20:45

With the quite impressive A14 and A1 improvements further north, and the Hindhead Tunnel on the A3 itself, I was hoping that perhaps the government would actually deliver on their announcement to make Wisley a "freeflow interchange". Sadly, it looks like HE penny pinching here means the chance to properly improve Wisley has been squandered for another couple of decades. I'm just thankful that I won't be caught up in the years of traffic jams (unless my circumstances change) for what seems to me to be not much payoff at the end.

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