The A30 in Cornwall

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RichardEvans67
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Re: The A30 in Cornwall

Post by RichardEvans67 »

Some hope :

https://www.piratefm.co.uk/news/latest- ... -penzance/

Mr Grayling said: "My vision is to deliver proper decent roads all the way to Penzance. But also, I am looking at some of the other road challenges in other parts of the county.
RichardEvans67
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Re: The A30 in Cornwall

Post by RichardEvans67 »

Another idea I had, that may seem quite radical, is to go well south of Hayle. Form the existing Dual near Cambourne, to the existing dual near Penzance.

Looking at Google Earth, it's only a distance of about 10 miles, so building brand new dual could probably be one big project. It would avoid the need to consider replacing the bridges on the Conner downs and Hayle bypasses, and it would bypass the villages west of Hayle, and Loggans Moor and St. Erth roundabouts.

Also the existing Hayle bypass could then be turned into a local feeder road.

It could have a junction with the B3302, which could be widened if necessary, to provide a link to the Hayle Bypass.

I think it's worth looking at, as upgrading the existing A30 would not be easy. But it also depends upon whether traffic levels are high enough to justify it.
DavidBrown
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Re: The A30 in Cornwall

Post by DavidBrown »

The problem is Richard that there's not that much "through" traffic there given that there's not much of England left to get through to! A lot of traffic on the Hayle bypass is for St Ives and other local areas and attractions so bypassing the lot would somewhat defeat the purpose of that stretch of the A30.
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Re: The A30 in Cornwall

Post by Richardf »

No I don't see much point in a 'bypass, bypass' scheme here either David. You would mess up a load of Cornish countryside for little gain.

No dualling the existing bypass is the best option. Might need to go offline in a few places and assymetric/parallel dualling might be easier than widening the existing road if this is a problem because of bridges etc.
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jackal
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Re: The A30 in Cornwall

Post by jackal »

RichardEvans67 wrote:I have a few thoughts reguarding the Hayle bypass.

Firstly I'm thinking surely the problem of U-Turns is caused by very slow traffic, and is that largely caused by the next section from St. Erth to Penzance. So I wonder if that section was improved, would that remove the temptation to U-Turn.

I'm also wondering, are traffic levels high enough to justify looking at dueling. I tried a search but couldn't find any figures.

So would it be enough to bypass the villages west of Hyle, or should they eventually be looking at dual all the way to penzance.
AADT on the bypass and the section down to Longrock about 20k according to SABRE Maps. This is in the range where you look at dualling, though a reasonably well-aligned road with passing opportunities like the Hayle bypass shouldn't be too bad. I agree the section beyond the bypass may be the main problem.

Some info on historical plans from Gaz earlier in this thread:
Now in 1993 I did a school project on the future Crowlas bypass. I interviewed the lady at who lived at the building next to Longrock roundabout whos house was due to be knocked down. She had a copy of the plans. I remember them very well. It was a D2, with a GSJ at Longrock and another at Hayle. The road went to the east of Crowlas and then crossed to the West just by The Lamb and Flag pub. There were 3 or 4 options but on the whole these were the plans.
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Re: The A30 in Cornwall

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by DavidBrown » Thu Aug 24, 2017 17:07

The problem is Richard that there's not that much "through" traffic there given that there's not much of England left to get through to! A lot of traffic on the Hayle bypass is for St Ives and other local areas and attractions so bypassing the lot would somewhat defeat the purpose of that stretch of the A30.
I didn't think of that (that most of the traffic would be local traffic).
So probably pretty much online on the Hayle bypass, but then probably off line west of there, to bypass the villages.

So after Chiverton the next priority would be St.Erth to Longrock. I'm thinking opening it as a dual may overload Loggans Moor and the Hayle Bypass, so I'm thinking perhaps initially build a single, but making sure it is not difficult to upgradable to dual later of required.
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Re: The A30 in Cornwall

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by jackal » Thu Aug 24, 2017 17:38
AADT on the bypass and the section down to Longrock about 20k according to SABRE Maps. This is in the range where you look at dualling, though a reasonably well-aligned road with passing opportunities like the Hayle bypass shouldn't be too bad.
Well 20K is perhaps a bit of an awkward number. Rather a lot for a single, but harder to justify a dual.

I suppose probably the best way forward would be bypass the villages to west, with initially a GS single, but make sure it will not be too difficult to upgrade to dual later.

Then I would expect Loggans Moor to be the main problem, probably needing a flyover, or underpass.

Then it would be a matter of whether and when dueling upgrades could be justified.
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Re: The A30 in Cornwall

Post by BF2142 »

jackal wrote:
RichardEvans67 wrote:I have a few thoughts reguarding the Hayle bypass.

Firstly I'm thinking surely the problem of U-Turns is caused by very slow traffic, and is that largely caused by the next section from St. Erth to Penzance. So I wonder if that section was improved, would that remove the temptation to U-Turn.

I'm also wondering, are traffic levels high enough to justify looking at dueling. I tried a search but couldn't find any figures.

So would it be enough to bypass the villages west of Hyle, or should they eventually be looking at dual all the way to penzance.
AADT on the bypass and the section down to Longrock about 20k according to SABRE Maps. This is in the range where you look at dualling, though a reasonably well-aligned road with passing opportunities like the Hayle bypass shouldn't be too bad. I agree the section beyond the bypass may be the main problem.

Some info on historical plans from Gaz earlier in this thread:
Now in 1993 I did a school project on the future Crowlas bypass. I interviewed the lady at who lived at the building next to Longrock roundabout whos house was due to be knocked down. She had a copy of the plans. I remember them very well. It was a D2, with a GSJ at Longrock and another at Hayle. The road went to the east of Crowlas and then crossed to the West just by The Lamb and Flag pub. There were 3 or 4 options but on the whole these were the plans.
The Hayle bypass is an awful, awful road that switches from S2 to S2+1 to S4 over a few miles. It was a historic mistake not build that section as DC and we can do better than repeating this kind of mess. But Cornwall simply needs a high-quality DC from PZ to the M5. The county has been let down too many times in the past by muddle-headed government policy changes that didn't do anyone any favours. They're on a roll after Temple and I can see the whole route being dualled, eventually.
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Re: The A30 in Cornwall

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by BF2142 » Fri Aug 25, 2017 12:22

The Hayle bypass is an awful, awful road that switches from S2 to S2+1 to S4 over a few miles. It was a historic mistake not build that section as DC and we can do better than repeating this kind of mess. But Cornwall simply needs a high-quality DC from PZ to the M5. The county has been let down too many times in the past by muddle-headed government policy changes that didn't do anyone any favours. They're on a roll after Temple and I can see the whole route being dualled, eventually.
I agree with the sentiment of DC to Penzance, and I think it was shortsighted to build the Bridges to narrow for DC. It fact I'd love to see DC expressway all the way to Penzance.

But in reality there has been too little spent on the roads for decades, and there is now a backlog of many schemes that ought to be done but are competing for funding. DC to Penzance is probably not as urgent as many other schemes, and so probably wouldn't be built for a very long time.

I think in the meantime a road from Hayle to Penzance that is reasonably fit for purpose should ease many of the problems. Then the problem of upgrading to DC could be tackled as and when.

Edit :
Another point, I don't think I made clear.

If the Hayle bypass had been dual, without improvements to the west, then I think traffic getting to the western end would have nowhere to go, so it would just be queueing on the bypass. So I don't think things would be significantly better. (Although I think not allowing for future dueling was rather short sighted).

I think that now a decent road to the west should get rid of many of the queues, as the traffic would then have somewhere to go, and I think that would probably make things a lot better than spending the money on dueling Hayle.

I still think Hayle ought to be dualed at some point though, and also any new road to the west should also be built with duling in mind.
Last edited by RichardEvans67 on Sat Aug 26, 2017 02:37, edited 1 time in total.
RichardEvans67
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Re: The A30 in Cornwall

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As far as widening the Bridges on the Hayle and Conner Down bypasses. I wonder if they could at least reuse the Abutments.

I'm thinking to widen a bridge :
1 : Remove the Bridge deck.
2 : Build retaining walls around the abutments (perhaps using piles), so the slope between abutment and road can be removed. To widen the road.
3 : Add whatever peers are required to take the extra weight, probably including one at the center.
4 : Create a new Bridge deck.

Obviously this would mean local traffic could not use the bridge for quite some time. So perhaps a phased approach. 1st do about 1/2 the bridges, leaving the other 1/2 to maintain some local routes. Then when enough of those bridges are reopened do the rest.
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Re: The A30 in Cornwall

Post by Richardf »

Agreed, Dualling Hayle is probably alow priority compared to other needed schemes, on the A30 and elsewhere. It's still a high quality road, even if it isn't dual, whereas the likes of Carland X to Chiverton X and the A303 gaps are unimproved S2 in greater need of improvement. Same argument can be made about thr Ilminster bypass,.

By all means upgrade the remaining unimproved bits of A30 and THEN dual Hayle/Connor Downs. Budget and political will permitting of course.

I think I mentioned it above but if/when dualling Hayle would constructing a second carriageway alongside the current one be a good way of doing it? Wouldn't have to touch the bridges, just build another set alongside. Less disruptive to traffic too.
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RichardEvans67
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Re: The A30 in Cornwall

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by Richardf » Sat Aug 26, 2017 17:09

I think I mentioned it above but if/when dualling Hayle would constructing a second carriageway alongside the current one be a good way of doing it? Wouldn't have to touch the bridges, just build another set alongside. Less disruptive to traffic too.
I had the same thought, so I took a closer look on Google Earth, but the closer I looked, the more I thought it is not nearly so simple. Basically the existing bridges take quite a bit of space (from roadway to Abutment).

So if you wanted to avoid changing the existing bridges then the new carriageway would have to be some distance away. So you would end up with a very wide central reservation, and so a wide road needing lots more land take, and you would also have to demolish a number of properties.

Or if you wanted the new carriageway closer to the existing one, then you couldn't avoid major structural changes to the existing bridges. Hence you might as well just reconstruct them wide enough.

In most cases there is enough space between the abutments, but the peers get in the way, and I assume that to move the peers you would have to pretty much replace everything except the abutments.
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Re: The A30 in Cornwall

Post by Scratchwood »

Richardf wrote:Agreed, Dualling Hayle is probably alow priority compared to other needed schemes, on the A30 and elsewhere. It's still a high quality road, even if it isn't dual, whereas the likes of Carland X to Chiverton X and the A303 gaps are unimproved S2 in greater need of improvement. Same argument can be made about thr Ilminster bypass,.

By all means upgrade the remaining unimproved bits of A30 and THEN dual Hayle/Connor Downs. Budget and political will permitting of course.
Agreed, it was a silly decision not to build it as D2, but there are far more important schemes that need to be done first, especially bearing in mind "how little of Cornwall" uses this section.
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Re: The A30 in Cornwall

Post by Berk »

I would imagine Cornwall Council should be up to the job of fixing the remaining sections (after Chiverton Cross).
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Re: The A30 in Cornwall

Post by Richardf »

If it had been dualled when built then it would still have been part of a decent stretch of D2. If i have the timeline right, with Connor Downs and Hayle dualled you would have had a nice stretch from the east end of the Redruth bypass to the roundabout at the end of the Hayle bypass. Add to this the Blackwater bypass and you would have dual from Chiverton to Hayle, just awaiting Carland to Chiverton to be done to link it to the next section east.

So not an isolated D2 in amongst mostly S2 as some have claimed. So it makes the decision not to dual even more political or financial rather than practical. They even built a section of D2 as part of the scheme, from the terminal junction of the Camborne bypass for a short way westwards before the S4 started. Could easily been continued westwards.
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Re: The A30 in Cornwall

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My only reservation is that if it had been Duel without improvements to the west, then that would have increased the problems in the Villages to the west (Not to mention loggans Moor to the east). So I think I would have gone for something similar to what we have today, but with the bridges suitable for dueling. As it is, many bridges are wide, but not quite wide enough, so it is as if they deliberately wanted to make dueling difficult :(
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Re: The A30 in Cornwall

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Postby Berk » Sun Aug 27, 2017 17:39

I would imagine Cornwall Council should be up to the job of fixing the remaining sections (after Chiverton Cross).
Although it may be too much for them to build a new road from St. Earth to longrock. After Chiverton + that, then they possibly they could deal with dueling one bit at a time.
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Re: The A30 in Cornwall

Post by Richardf »

RichardEvans67 wrote:My only reservation is that if it had been Duel without improvements to the west, then that would have increased the problems in the Villages to the west (Not to mention loggans Moor to the east). So I think I would have gone for something similar to what we have today, but with the bridges suitable for dueling. As it is, many bridges are wide, but not quite wide enough, so it is as if they deliberately wanted to make dueling difficult :(
Good point. Would have made sense to build a future proofed scheme at the time.
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Re: The A30 in Cornwall

Post by Lewis1997 »

I know it is a little off the beaten track and probably somewhat irrelevant, but was the purpose of making the Penzance bypass primary status? It's of good standard, yes (bar the 50mph limit on most of the length), but so is the first section of the non-primary A30 from Mount misery to Newlyn crossroads.
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Re: The A30 in Cornwall

Post by Ritchie333 »

Roads are classified as primary because of the importance to traffic and the amount of money allocated to their upkeep and maintenance. Just look at the A830, to pick a random example.
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