M1 J23a / M1 J24 for the A50

The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.

There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).

Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.

Moderator: Site Management Team

User avatar
c2R
SABRE Wiki admin
Posts: 11162
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2002 11:01

Re: M1 J23a / M1 J24 for the A50

Post by c2R »

Just an update - this evening Warren Lane Roundabout was sort of still half present, but the A50 eastbound now goes across the M1 bridge and meets the new alignment of the M1 s/b off-slip for J24 (Kegworth). Both lanes merge and go up onto the interchange - the link for A50 traffic back down to the M1 is not yet open.
Is there a road improvement project going on near you? Help us to document it on the SABRE Wiki - help is available in the Digest forum.
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Get involved! - see our guide to scanning and stitching maps
User avatar
c2R
SABRE Wiki admin
Posts: 11162
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2002 11:01

Re: M1 J23a / M1 J24 for the A50

Post by c2R »

The roundabout at Warren Lane is now gone, with the A50 passing straight through in both Directions.

Here's the progress on the bridge, a little further south, with the s/b off sliproad from the M1 to Kegworht Interchange being bridged by the A50 southbound M1 on slip (not yet open).

Image
Is there a road improvement project going on near you? Help us to document it on the SABRE Wiki - help is available in the Digest forum.
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Get involved! - see our guide to scanning and stitching maps
User avatar
Berk
Member
Posts: 9779
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2010 02:36
Location: somewhere in zone 1

Re: M1 J23a / M1 J24 for the A50

Post by Berk »

This has got me thinking, why do we still need J24?? It should be changed to a freeflow M1/A453S - A453N. The A50 movements can be a diverge off of the A453.

To allow M1-A50 access, I’d change J24a to make that more suitable for M1 traffic (maybe include a flyover so A50S-M1S can still use J24.
User avatar
c2R
SABRE Wiki admin
Posts: 11162
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2002 11:01

Re: M1 J23a / M1 J24 for the A50

Post by c2R »

Yes, I preferred the plans that did away with the junction and created essentially a massive braided interchange that meant that M1 <--> A42 and A50 <--> M1 traffic didn't meet.

I suspect that given the road investment that has come with the new railfreight terminal, the J24 roundabout will stay busy as large numbers of HGVs flow in and out of the terminal in all directions...
Is there a road improvement project going on near you? Help us to document it on the SABRE Wiki - help is available in the Digest forum.
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Get involved! - see our guide to scanning and stitching maps
User avatar
danfw194
Member
Posts: 925
Joined: Sat May 26, 2018 23:26
Location: Leicester

Re: M1 J23a / M1 J24 for the A50

Post by danfw194 »

After all of this, the embarrassingly poor M1 nb to A50 wb connections will see barely any improvement. Unless they're going to re-sign it, 'Stoke A50' traffic will still be directed off at J23A, taking in the Finger Farm roundabout, the new sort-of-roundabout on the A453, before finally reaching the A50 via a freeflow lane at Junction 24. As before, 'Stoke A50' traffic will still be better to ignore the signs and leave at Junction 24. To do all this work and not create a direct freeflow exit from M1 nb to A50 wb is poor form.
User avatar
ForestChav
SABRE Developer
Posts: 11081
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2005 00:00
Location: Nottingham (Bronx of the Midlands)
Contact:

Re: M1 J23a / M1 J24 for the A50

Post by ForestChav »

danfw194 wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 21:30 After all of this, the embarrassingly poor M1 nb to A50 wb connections will see barely any improvement. Unless they're going to re-sign it, 'Stoke A50' traffic will still be directed off at J23A, taking in the Finger Farm roundabout, the new sort-of-roundabout on the A453, before finally reaching the A50 via a freeflow lane at Junction 24. As before, 'Stoke A50' traffic will still be better to ignore the signs and leave at Junction 24. To do all this work and not create a direct freeflow exit from M1 nb to A50 wb is poor form.
It would make most sense to close off J24 entirely and use 23a and 24a as north facing and south facing slips for the complex as a whole, but considering that this would include all A42, A453, A50, A6 and airport traffic, as well as for Donington Park, it may be a bit overloaded without taking some movements off the complex.

For M1N to A50 traffic leaving at 24a would, on the face of it, be the best option however it would obviously need a slip road building, which is the issue - it would either need to come off before the 24 on slip, meaning this would need to take a wider angle, and would need a bridge to cross, meaning a significant height gain at the same time, which isn't possible anyway because of the hotel - or cause a weaving issue, so you'd also need to close the 24 on slip meaning all traffic needing to join the M1 would have to do so at 24a - which they've just removed the island where you could have done this (were it possible to access it from the A50 northbound, which would have required a minor modification).

The whole thing is a total mess and quite simply just needed flattening, but it could be saved by a few slight tweaks. Carry the A50 straight on into Nottingham, and end it on the A52 along the current A453 alignment - this number is a joke in itself as it wasn't ever the original A453 and is a stub out of zone caused by the A42/M42 renumbering. You'd need to renumber the A50 between M1 and Leicester, but this could carry on as A511. Make where the A50 crosses the M1 a junction similar to 25 where the dual carriageways carry on and the crossing movements are handled by an island. Keep the existing 24 island for the link road between this and the A50, A50 connection to Nottingham and M1 south (current A453) and the old route of the A6 through Kegworth. A42 mainline free flows into and off the M1 north as it does now. Connect the M1 south to another roundabout where the A453 heads west to the airport, linking this into the A6 bypassing Kegworth to the south (another trick they missed), and use the current A453 to link this to the old 24 roundabout. Because you have no more intersection with the M1 until the A50 you can make this one full access too, both with the A42 and M1.
C, E flat and G go into a bar. The barman says "sorry, we don't serve minors". So E flat walks off, leaving C and G to share an open fifth between them.

Never argue with an idiot. They will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.
User avatar
danfw194
Member
Posts: 925
Joined: Sat May 26, 2018 23:26
Location: Leicester

Re: M1 J23a / M1 J24 for the A50

Post by danfw194 »

I agree with most of that - especially what you say about creating a junction 25-esque for the A50 at Warren Lane, renumbering it as Junction 24. Totally on board with carrying the A50 over the M1 and plugging into what is currently the A453, but personally I would go even further than that. In a fantasy land, I'd do the aforementioned work and build a new D2 from Barton to Stragglethorpe - in essence having an unbroken D2 A50 meeting the A46. This would take some pressure of the A52 and create an east (Lincs)-west (Staffs) link that avoids having to traipse through, or uncomfortably close to, Derby and Nottingham.
User avatar
c2R
SABRE Wiki admin
Posts: 11162
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2002 11:01

Re: M1 J23a / M1 J24 for the A50

Post by c2R »

I'm not sure that most of the A50 traffic wants to go to Nottingham - in fact, I'd be pretty sure it doesn't. Rail freight terminal is also going to change the traffic pattern enormously.

The decision to leave out a M1N->A50W slip is somewhat puzzling though - perhaps it doesn't score highly on the BCR as part of the rail freight scheme, so money will have to come from elsewhere to build it at some point in the future.

The southbound free flow should also help alleviate some of the traffic conflicts if N/B traffic does come off at 24, so there should be some improvement in any case.
Is there a road improvement project going on near you? Help us to document it on the SABRE Wiki - help is available in the Digest forum.
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Get involved! - see our guide to scanning and stitching maps
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35754
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: M1 J23a / M1 J24 for the A50

Post by Bryn666 »

c2R wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 23:03 I'm not sure that most of the A50 traffic wants to go to Nottingham - in fact, I'd be pretty sure it doesn't. Rail freight terminal is also going to change the traffic pattern enormously.

The decision to leave out a M1N->A50W slip is somewhat puzzling though - perhaps it doesn't score highly on the BCR as part of the rail freight scheme, so money will have to come from elsewhere to build it at some point in the future.

The southbound free flow should also help alleviate some of the traffic conflicts if N/B traffic does come off at 24, so there should be some improvement in any case.
It would require complex structural work over live lanes so probably booted into the too hard pile even though surrounding work like lifting the A453 massively to accommodate the Kegworth Bypass has been needed.

It wouldn't be a British junction improvement if it didn't have something weird about it.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
User avatar
c2R
SABRE Wiki admin
Posts: 11162
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2002 11:01

Re: M1 J23a / M1 J24 for the A50

Post by c2R »

Looking at the area again I think you're right, that there could be weaving issues with the m1 north to A50 movement if a merge from kegworth interchange preceded the a50 diverge which probably explains its absence...
Is there a road improvement project going on near you? Help us to document it on the SABRE Wiki - help is available in the Digest forum.
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Get involved! - see our guide to scanning and stitching maps
drpsg
Member
Posts: 120
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 17:04
Location: England

Re: M1 J23a / M1 J24 for the A50

Post by drpsg »

Not sure if it's been mentioned above, but it's freeflow now from the A50 onto the M1. Looked like plenty of landscaping needs to be done, but certainly cuts some time off the old format. It does make me wonder why the bothered altering the main M1 roundabout with the A50 cut-through about 3 years ago (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=34082&p=755858). I tried it once and decided it wasn't quicker to get to the M1.
User avatar
danfw194
Member
Posts: 925
Joined: Sat May 26, 2018 23:26
Location: Leicester

Re: M1 J23a / M1 J24 for the A50

Post by danfw194 »

drpsg wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 20:40 Not sure if it's been mentioned above, but it's freeflow now from the A50 onto the M1. Looked like plenty of landscaping needs to be done, but certainly cuts some time off the old format. It does make me wonder why the bothered altering the main M1 roundabout with the A50 cut-through about 3 years ago (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=34082&p=755858). I tried it once and decided it wasn't quicker to get to the M1.
Yes, completely agree. It was a silly 'bolt-on' to a failing junction. In the old format, it was more sensible (for those in the know) to ignore the cut-through and join the M1 southbound by simply going around the J24 roundabout.
User avatar
ForestChav
SABRE Developer
Posts: 11081
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2005 00:00
Location: Nottingham (Bronx of the Midlands)
Contact:

Re: M1 J23a / M1 J24 for the A50

Post by ForestChav »

danfw194 wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 22:10
drpsg wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 20:40 Not sure if it's been mentioned above, but it's freeflow now from the A50 onto the M1. Looked like plenty of landscaping needs to be done, but certainly cuts some time off the old format. It does make me wonder why the bothered altering the main M1 roundabout with the A50 cut-through about 3 years ago (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=34082&p=755858). I tried it once and decided it wasn't quicker to get to the M1.
Yes, completely agree. It was a silly 'bolt-on' to a failing junction. In the old format, it was more sensible (for those in the know) to ignore the cut-through and join the M1 southbound by simply going around the J24 roundabout.
Yes, a bit like those who know that at M40/A46 when heading from the M40 northbound towards Coventry, to ignore the signs and turn left onto the roundabout for the A46 southbound then turn right. Much quicker than navigating the lights on the island.
C, E flat and G go into a bar. The barman says "sorry, we don't serve minors". So E flat walks off, leaving C and G to share an open fifth between them.

Never argue with an idiot. They will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.
User avatar
c2R
SABRE Wiki admin
Posts: 11162
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2002 11:01

Re: M1 J23a / M1 J24 for the A50

Post by c2R »

danfw194 wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 22:10
drpsg wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 20:40 Not sure if it's been mentioned above, but it's freeflow now from the A50 onto the M1. Looked like plenty of landscaping needs to be done, but certainly cuts some time off the old format. It does make me wonder why the bothered altering the main M1 roundabout with the A50 cut-through about 3 years ago (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=34082&p=755858). I tried it once and decided it wasn't quicker to get to the M1.
Yes, completely agree. It was a silly 'bolt-on' to a failing junction. In the old format, it was more sensible (for those in the know) to ignore the cut-through and join the M1 southbound by simply going around the J24 roundabout.
We've been through this before, but the purpose was to separate the traffic flows at peak hours, meaning M1S-->M42 traffic didn't meet A50-->M1S traffic.
Is there a road improvement project going on near you? Help us to document it on the SABRE Wiki - help is available in the Digest forum.
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Get involved! - see our guide to scanning and stitching maps
User avatar
A303Chris
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 3587
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 14:01
Location: Reading

Re: M1 J23a / M1 J24 for the A50

Post by A303Chris »

ForestChav wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 22:21 Yes, a bit like those who know that at M40/A46 when heading from the M40 northbound towards Coventry, to ignore the signs and turn left onto the roundabout for the A46 southbound then turn right. Much quicker than navigating the lights on the island.
I'm glad I'm not the only one that does that, you miss out two sets of signals and the southern roundabout is not signalised
The M25 - The road to nowhere
bart
Member
Posts: 520
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 22:36
Location: Hawaii, USA

Re: M1 J23a / M1 J24 for the A50

Post by bart »

c2R wrote: Thu Aug 09, 2018 09:35 We've been through this before, but the purpose was to separate the traffic flows at peak hours, meaning M1S-->M42 traffic didn't meet A50-->M1S traffic.
But that separation doesn't exist any more, right, because both those routes now use the M1 s/b between J24 and J23a (using the A453 past East Midlands is clearly worse now)?
User avatar
c2R
SABRE Wiki admin
Posts: 11162
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2002 11:01

Re: M1 J23a / M1 J24 for the A50

Post by c2R »

bart wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 00:26
c2R wrote: Thu Aug 09, 2018 09:35 We've been through this before, but the purpose was to separate the traffic flows at peak hours, meaning M1S-->M42 traffic didn't meet A50-->M1S traffic.
But that separation doesn't exist any more, right, because both those routes now use the M1 s/b between J24 and J23a (using the A453 past East Midlands is clearly worse now)?
Yup, that's exactly right - the two traffic flows now cross oneanother on the M1 mainline, as the solution chosen wasn't the gold plated parallel carriageways one that was originally proposed. What's worse is that to widen this section further in years to come will be difficult, as there's not a lot of space under the bridges. We've essentially got another short term improvement here, and again while it is better than what was here before, there appears to be no long term vision whatsoever.
Is there a road improvement project going on near you? Help us to document it on the SABRE Wiki - help is available in the Digest forum.
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Get involved! - see our guide to scanning and stitching maps
User avatar
jackal
Member
Posts: 7545
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 23:33
Location: M6

Re: M1 J23a / M1 J24 for the A50

Post by jackal »

It takes a heavy movement off the J24 roundabout with freeflow and braiding no less. It also freeflows the smaller roundabout and M1sb>A50. It's an excellent improvement whatever way you look at it, and exceptional for a developer scheme.

I agree that the 1994 and 2007 schemes would have separated traffic more effectively. But I'd far sooner have freeflow that is actually built in a couple of years with a minimum of fuss, than yet another helping of spaghetti destined to never leave the drawing board.
User avatar
c2R
SABRE Wiki admin
Posts: 11162
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2002 11:01

Re: M1 J23a / M1 J24 for the A50

Post by c2R »

Absolutely, I don't disagree with anything you've said, and I do think that again, it's significantly better than nothing.
Is there a road improvement project going on near you? Help us to document it on the SABRE Wiki - help is available in the Digest forum.
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Get involved! - see our guide to scanning and stitching maps
darkcape
Member
Posts: 2094
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 14:54

Re: M1 J23a / M1 J24 for the A50

Post by darkcape »

c2R wrote: Thu Aug 09, 2018 09:35
We've been through this before, but the purpose was to separate the traffic flows at peak hours, meaning M1S-->M42 traffic didn't meet A50-->M1S traffic.
I think it also had something to do with the A453 improvement, that without the A50 cut-through the extra traffic on the A453 southbound would experience long queues and snarl up the roundabout. One you remove A50 south traffic from the east side of J24 it frees up the A453 entry. The new J24a layout does the same.
Which is why it had to be done in 2015 when the A453 was widened despite them knowing the Roxhill scheme was coming.

The fact that A50 south and A42 traffic mix again is dealt with, supposedly, by the Smart Motorway scheme which is why J24-25 was extended to J23a.
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
Post Reply