Upgrading the A66 and A69

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KeithW
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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by KeithW »

solocle wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 18:27
Yes, it makes sense from the standpoint of "we have to provide NMU improvements within the scheme boundary". But the scheme boundary is determined by the bottlenecks of motor traffic. Meanwhile you end up with white elephant NMU provision that isn't used, simple because it goes nowhere. There's no movement to rectify past mistakes, instead National Highways England just throw NMUs onto the 1960s-1990s dual carriageways.

You'd think that a company in charge of managing a transport network would understand that, you know, it needs to be a network.

And even within current scheme boundaries they fail. Just look at Appleby - Brough. 1.6 miles to the B6259 junction. 2.4 miles to connect up with the old A66.

And sure, it might be unconventional to redo existing sections, but when you have a road like the A66, confined by the Pennines? It's the shortest, flattest route between Cumbria and Darlington, Middlesborough... Heck, it's easily the easiest route from York.

As it is, it's a thoroughly unpleasant road. Reminded me of the A303 around my parts.
Capture.jpg
Again from LEJOG. A bank holiday monday. I cycled on both single and dual carriageway sections (the latter being about a mile). Unpleasant, but at no time was it utterly terrifying, and it saved quite a bit of extra climbing.

But the A34, for instance, is a whole different league. I once had the misfortune to end up on that road at rush hour (Bicester-Oxford, sat nav went haywire). That was truly, utterly horrifying. I'd probably have been far safer going the one other way that I knew home - down the M40's hard shoulder, off to Wheatley, cycleway from there.

The A66 is going to move from being like the A303 to more like the A34. What long distance cyclists there are are either going to carry on riding it, or just not. But some will cycle it, and people will die as a result of this scheme.

It's about £1 million for a km of cycle superhighway. The section from Brough to Bowes is just over 20 km.

Let's call it £30 mn. Next to the £1 billion being spent on this project.

The A34 in that regard is like many other non motorway D2 strategic roads including most of of the A1, A2, A3, A4, A6, A12, A14, A47, A50, A64 etc

I am not saying its right but that is how it is. By all means make your comment's but dont expect anything to happen.

As for costing the A66 between Penrith and Scotch Corner is 50 miles and very little of that has NMU provision. I suspect you are also considerably underestimating the cost if you figure in the cost of improving junctions. There are a lot like this.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.51553 ... 6656?hl=en

The climate at Stainmore is not good and its going to be at least 30 miles from the nearest construction compound which adds a fair bit of cost compared with working in less remote areas. The main issue though is HE do not want to set a precedent and nor I suspect do the DfT.
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KeithW
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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by KeithW »

owen b wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 19:29
I've done a fair amount of leisure cycling including a handful of multi-day long distance trips and I understand your points. But I'm an accountant by trade and I have my doubts that £30 million spent on a Brough to Bowes cycle superhighway would be value for money. I suspect that £30 million would get much more benefit to cyclists elsewhere where there is higher cycling demand. I'd be interested to know how much demand there is to cycle along the A66 Pennines corridor, but my suspicion is very little. My hunch is that there aren't a large number of long distance cyclists wanting to cross the north Pennines, and most of those that do prioritise scenery and the challenge of the hill climbs so are happy to pick other routes, and I really can't imagine there are many cyclists using the A66 or that general part of the north Pennines for non-leisure purposes.
I dug out the statistics for Bowes, it is to all intents and purposes zero. Between 2004 and 2017 the AADF was measured as 0 with the exception of 2003 when it was 3. Most cyclists seem to use the B6270 through Swaledale or the A684. I cant say I blame them, it was bad enough across Bowes Moor and Stainmore on a motorbike.
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solocle
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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by solocle »

KeithW wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 20:13
The A34 in that regard is like many other non motorway D2 strategic roads including most of of the A1, A2, A3, A4, A6, A12, A14, A47, A50, A64 etc

I am not saying its right but that is how it is. By all means make your comment's but dont expect anything to happen.

As for costing the A66 between Penrith and Scotch Corner is 50 miles and very little of that has NMU provision. I suspect you are also considerably underestimating the cost if you figure in the cost of improving junctions. There are a lot like this.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.51553 ... 6656?hl=en

The climate at Stainmore is not good and its going to be at least 30 miles from the nearest construction compound which adds a fair bit of cost compared with working in less remote areas. The main issue though is HE do not want to set a precedent and nor I suspect do the DfT.
I think you mean the A5, the A4 beyond London is rather nice, and a lot of the A6 is too - even primary sections.
B4F26D67-6E17-4546-9470-A41BD6D377AB.jpeg
With the dualling scheme I was seeing a lot of usable local roads, and I factored in as far as the A67 junction, rather than all the way to Scotch Corner.

Junction improvements are already packaged in the scheme - I actually think the price per km is a significant overestimate due to likely being based on busy urban environments with many junctions.
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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by djw1981 »

Came along A69 tonight and the mainline traffic heading east now passes under the roundabout; albeit with cones everywhere, uneven joins of surface and 30mph restriction.
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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by IanRB »

djw1981 wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 23:13 Came along A69 tonight and the mainline traffic heading east now passes under the roundabout; albeit with cones everywhere, uneven joins of surface and 30mph restriction.
It's been open for a week or two now.

But the upgrade of the next but one junction to the east, i.e. Styford, seems to have ground to a halt.
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jackal
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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by jackal »

A supplementary A66 consultation on "walking, cycling and horse-riding provision, landform and compounds" has opened: https://highwaysengland.citizenspace.co ... sultation/
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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by A303Chris »

Latest update on the A66 improvements have been released by National Highways including amendments to the proposals following last Autumn's consultation.

Press release here

A66 Trans Pennine Project Winter update 2022
The M25 - The road to nowhere
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KeithW
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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by KeithW »

Loos good to me, all they have to do know is build it :)
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Mark Hewitt
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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by Mark Hewitt »

KeithW wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 10:26 Loos good to me, all they have to do know is build it :)
Quite. This has been in consideration for decades. Stop **** about and build it.
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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by KeithW »

To be fair the preparatory work including archaeological surveys are underway and given much of the route follows the old Roman Road this could take awhile.
https://cwherald.com/news/digging-for-r ... g-the-a66/
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/digg ... nine-route
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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

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I've been watching the case of the overbridge at Bowes with interest for years. I see they've now decided not to do a Gateshead but to rebuild it instead.
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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

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Switching to the other subject of this thread, the A69, where Bridge End GSJ is done but nothing has been heard recently about the one at Styford, a web search finds this news report from last autumn, which says that DfT accepted a recommendation from National Highways England Agency to pause Styford following adverse local reception.

https://www.hexham-courant.co.uk/news/1 ... y-england/
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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by Thomas550 »

wrinkly wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 14:54 Switching to the other subject of this thread, the A69, where Bridge End GSJ is done but nothing has been heard recently about the one at Styford, a web search finds this news report from last autumn, which says that DfT accepted a recommendation from National Highways England Agency to pause Styford following adverse local reception.

https://www.hexham-courant.co.uk/news/1 ... y-england/
As a local to the area. I don't think I could stand another 2ish years of roadworks for very little benifit. S i'm not surprised that he works were shelved. No one is willing to suffer through it again especially if the "turning circle" introduced again. Many times have I seen some absolutley shocking driving through it. Including complete give way ignorance and cars blasting through at full speed despite the camers
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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by Thomas550 »

wrinkly wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 14:54 Switching to the other subject of this thread, the A69, where Bridge End GSJ is done but nothing has been heard recently about the one at Styford, a web search finds this news report from last autumn, which says that DfT accepted a recommendation from National Highways England Agency to pause Styford following adverse local reception.

https://www.hexham-courant.co.uk/news/1 ... y-england/
As a local to the area. I don't think I could stand another 2ish years of roadworks for very little benifit. So I'm not surprised that the works were shelved. No one is willing to suffer through it again especially if the "turning circle" introduced again. Many times have I seen some absolutley shocking driving through it. Including complete give way ignorance and cars blasting through at full speed despite the cameras
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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by Chris Bertram »

Thomas550 wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 21:21
wrinkly wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 14:54 Switching to the other subject of this thread, the A69, where Bridge End GSJ is done but nothing has been heard recently about the one at Styford, a web search finds this news report from last autumn, which says that DfT accepted a recommendation from National Highways England Agency to pause Styford following adverse local reception.

https://www.hexham-courant.co.uk/news/1 ... y-england/
As a local to the area. I don't think I could stand another 2ish years of roadworks for very little benifit. So I'm not surprised that the works were shelved. No one is willing to suffer through it again especially if the "turning circle" introduced again. Many times have I seen some absolutley shocking driving through it. Including complete give way ignorance and cars blasting through at full speed despite the cameras
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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by ABB125 »

However, for Styford, wouldn't the sensible option be a flyover rather than an underpass? Which, in theory, is less disruptive as "all you need to do" is install two bridges...
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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

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ABB125 wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 23:14 However, for Styford, wouldn't the sensible option be a flyover rather than an underpass? Which, in theory, is less disruptive as "all you need to do" is install two bridges...
Nobody has ever suggested an underpass at Styford, have they? It's obviously designed for a flyover.
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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by JammyDodge »

ABB125 wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 23:14 However, for Styford, wouldn't the sensible option be a flyover rather than an underpass? Which, in theory, is less disruptive as "all you need to do" is install two bridges...
Yes, I theory, you can build most of it without closing a single lane for the A69 95% of the time, with a lane reduction on the roundabout for turning movements

Being uneducated in construction management, I would think that you could do a week worth of night closures for turning movements to crane in the support beams for the 2 bridges and a week of lane reductions on the A69 to tie it in fully and a week of full night closure for surfacing and marking
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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by Thomas550 »

JammyDodge wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 00:21
ABB125 wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 23:14 However, for Styford, wouldn't the sensible option be a flyover rather than an underpass? Which, in theory, is less disruptive as "all you need to do" is install two bridges...
Yes, I theory, you can build most of it without closing a single lane for the A69 95% of the time, with a lane reduction on the roundabout for turning movements

Being uneducated in construction management, I would think that you could do a week worth of night closures for turning movements to crane in the support beams for the 2 bridges and a week of lane reductions on the A69 to tie it in fully and a week of full night closure for surfacing and marking
When you have National Highways or whatever they call themselves these days, The project will not go to plan or budget. They almost certainly won't do it in an efficient mannor. It will be over a year of useless lane closures, full closures and speed limits. There will probably be just shed loads of delays in the construction project. I'm by no means an expert in roadworks but when they did Hexham there just seemed to be months where nothing actually happened. I wouldn't wait with bated breath for an efficent improvent project
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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by Glenn A »

I worked out last week, the new Bridge End junction cut five minutes from my journey. No more waiting at the roundabout on the A69 and also joining the A69 from the A6079 is quicker.
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