Upgrading the A66 and A69

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doebag
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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by doebag » Thu Nov 12, 2020 09:25

MFB wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 08:41
Any update on the A69 Hexham Bridge End roundabout upgrade? A nice example of future proofing finally coming good!
I was through it last month. Seemed to be a lot of work for something that was future proofed but then I’m no road engineer.

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jackal
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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by jackal » Thu Nov 12, 2020 11:59

There's a similar use of futureproofing at the Countess Roundabout as part of the Stonehenge project.

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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by KeithW » Thu Nov 12, 2020 13:16

ForestChav wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 22:13
They need to improve the A1 south of the M62 as well. As soon as you come out of the motorway section heading south the quality drops noticeably. Pretty much all of the islands have gone until the A14 turns off but most of it until Peterborough is still largely unimproved D2 with the odd right hand exit and a few tight slip roads. If it's bad form to make it motorway adding the extra lane and making it all LILO would presumably do.
Taint that simple, you cannot just wave a magic wand and abolish rights of way on an existing road. In any event the A1 between Blyth and Peterborough is very variable in quality, the bypasses of Grantham and Stamford were built around the time of the M1 and are of good quality, other sections are much more problematic.

Now an upgrade for the section from the M62 to the Doncaster bypass and the Bypass itself are in pencilled in for RIS3 but south of there no plans exist for upgrades.

Try making this a motorway !
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.27240 ... 312!8i6656
ForestChav wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 22:13
But yes, the M6 route perhaps is less direct as well as having all the traffic to get around the likes of Birmingham, Coventry, Stoke, Manchester, Liverpool, Preston, Bolton and surrounding areas before it can head through to Scotland. The A1 notably avoids most population centres of any size near it (Nottingham, Peterborough, Leeds, York, Lincoln) and even those it bypasses aren't too big (Newark, Grantham, Retford, Doncaster) so has less of an issue. Some of those are arguably better served by the M1, too, though this depends where you're going.

But if you're looking at the SE ports (Not just Felixstowe, the same would hold for Kent too) linking to Scotland improving the A66 isn't going to be the whole solution. The newer dualled A-roads (A14, but also the new stretches of A453 and A46) are pretty high quality, so even plugging the gaps on the A66 would not necessarily be the most benefit.
The A1 of course has gone nowhere near York or Lincoln since the growth of the railways and end of stage coaches and is 25 miles from Nottingham. The A66 was a major transpennine route 2000 years ago when the Romans built their line of forts along it. In fact one of the major battles of the Roman era was fought over the control of Scotch Corner.

As for the SE Ports the A66 is definitely part of the solution along with the M2/M20, LTC, M25, M11 and A1. In fact in normal traffic travel times between Dover and Carlisle are similar for the M1/M6 and A1/A66/M6. I spent many years travelling between Kent and NE England and my usual route was M20/M25/M11/A1/A1(M)

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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by ForestChav » Thu Nov 12, 2020 13:33

KeithW wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 13:16
ForestChav wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 22:13
They need to improve the A1 south of the M62 as well. As soon as you come out of the motorway section heading south the quality drops noticeably. Pretty much all of the islands have gone until the A14 turns off but most of it until Peterborough is still largely unimproved D2 with the odd right hand exit and a few tight slip roads. If it's bad form to make it motorway adding the extra lane and making it all LILO would presumably do.
Taint that simple, you cannot just wave a magic wand and abolish rights of way on an existing road. In any event the A1 between Blyth and Peterborough is very variable in quality, the bypasses of Grantham and Stamford were built around the time of the M1 and are of good quality, other sections are much more problematic.

Now an upgrade for the section from the M62 to the Doncaster bypass and the Bypass itself are in pencilled in for RIS3 but south of there no plans exist for upgrades.

Try making this a motorway !
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.27240 ... 312!8i6656
Notice how I didn't say making it a motorway - whilst it's possible, and has been done in tighter places than Elkesley (which of course wasn't on the initial A1, that bit is stolen A57) in these places (there are a few between the M62 and Doncaster too) you probably need to go offline. The issue with the right of way has usually been resolved in other places by providing a parallel access road to the motorway for local traffic which is all you'd need.

But in reality, the extra lane and removing some of the silly junctions is probably all you would need to do here, D3AP from the A14 to M62 would not feel like a drop in quality and would make it slightly bearable with the amount of freight on it.

Ironically, the junctions at Grantham with the A52 and A607 were the ones I was referring to with tight slip roads...
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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by KeithW » Thu Nov 12, 2020 14:50

ForestChav wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 13:33


Taint that simple, you cannot just wave a magic wand and abolish rights of way on an existing road. In any event the A1 between

Notice how I didn't say making it a motorway - whilst it's possible, and has been done in tighter places than Elkesley (which of course wasn't on the initial A1, that bit is stolen A57) in these places (there are a few between the M62 and Doncaster too) you probably need to go offline. The issue with the right of way has usually been resolved in other places by providing a parallel access road to the motorway for local traffic which is all you'd need.

But in reality, the extra lane and removing some of the silly junctions is probably all you would need to do here, D3AP from the A14 to M62 would not feel like a drop in quality and would make it slightly bearable with the amount of freight on it.

Ironically, the junctions at Grantham with the A52 and A607 were the ones I was referring to with tight slip roads...
More than a few places and if you thinks the A52 or A607 is bad consider these.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.87375 ... 384!8i8192

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.76088 ... 384!8i8192

Not to mention the business premises that have direct access to the road and farm entrances
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.76399 ... 312!8i6656

The real problem for the A1 between Blyth and Peterborough is the elephant racing with only 2 lanes. Dont get me wrong I would love to see the A1 upgraded but given existing traffic levels I dont see it happening soon. In fact if any section really needs an urgent fix its south of the A14 at Buckden and even more so from Tempsford through Sandy and the execrable junctions at Beeston.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.12156 ... 312!8i6656

Adding an extra lane is kinda hard to do at places such as Elkesley which is why I mentioned it, on line widening is not really a good idea for much of the remaining A1 because
1) The alignment is not wide enough
2) In reality it will become the LAR as happened between Wetherby and Disforth

PS I am well aware of the A1 realignments following the building of the Doncaster bypass.

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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by doebag » Thu Nov 12, 2020 18:34

The A68/A69 at Corbridge.
Can someone explain why on the southside of the A69 there is a roundabout junction, but the northside is a staggered crossroads ?
Traffic flows ? or is the roundabout a later modification ?

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owen b
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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by owen b » Thu Nov 12, 2020 18:44

doebag wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 18:34
The A68/A69 at Corbridge.
Can someone explain why on the southside of the A69 there is a roundabout junction, but the northside is a staggered crossroads ?
Traffic flows ? or is the roundabout a later modification ?
I can't tell you the reason, I can tell you that the layout is original, not modified. It's shown this way on my 1:50,000 OS map from 1976.
Owen

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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by ForestChav » Thu Nov 12, 2020 19:04

Looks to me like it's to allow direct flow from A68S onto A69E
C, E flat and G go into a bar. The barman says "sorry, we don't serve minors". So E flat walks off, leaving C and G to share an open fifth between them.

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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by mbeatts » Fri Nov 13, 2020 16:53

MFB wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 08:41
Any update on the A69 Hexham Bridge End roundabout upgrade? A nice example of future proofing finally coming good!
Going great, full excavated and on track.
Image

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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by Glenn A » Sat Nov 14, 2020 13:00

doebag wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 18:34
The A68/A69 at Corbridge.
Can someone explain why on the southside of the A69 there is a roundabout junction, but the northside is a staggered crossroads ?
Traffic flows ? or is the roundabout a later modification ?
The A69 by passed Corbridge in 1976, but the A68 eastern by pass wasn't built until 1982 and joined the A69 at a roundabout 2 miles east of the village.

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Chris5156
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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by Chris5156 » Sat Nov 14, 2020 13:18

doebag wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 18:34
The A68/A69 at Corbridge.
Can someone explain why on the southside of the A69 there is a roundabout junction, but the northside is a staggered crossroads ?
Traffic flows ? or is the roundabout a later modification ?
Most likely traffic flows. The greatest flows will be between the A69 and the road to the north of the junction (or, at least, that was the prediction for the greatest flows when the junction was designed). That means the northern pair of sliproads will be mostly used for left turns, but the southern pair for right turns. That in turn means a roundabout is used on the south side to facilitate the right turns, but isn't needed on the north side.

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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by Glenn A » Sat Nov 14, 2020 13:24

Chris5156 wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 13:18
doebag wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 18:34
The A68/A69 at Corbridge.
Can someone explain why on the southside of the A69 there is a roundabout junction, but the northside is a staggered crossroads ?
Traffic flows ? or is the roundabout a later modification ?
Most likely traffic flows. The greatest flows will be between the A69 and the road to the north of the junction (or, at least, that was the prediction for the greatest flows when the junction was designed). That means the northern pair of sliproads will be mostly used for left turns, but the southern pair for right turns. That in turn means a roundabout is used on the south side to facilitate the right turns, but isn't needed on the north side.
There was a gap of 5 years between the by passes as well.

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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by MFB » Sat Nov 14, 2020 14:09

mbeatts wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 16:53
MFB wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 08:41
Any update on the A69 Hexham Bridge End roundabout upgrade? A nice example of future proofing finally coming good!
Going great, full excavated and on track.
Image
Looking good! Will make a big positive difference to traffic in the area and the slog to Carlisle ever so slightly smoother.

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Mark Hewitt
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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by Mark Hewitt » Sat Nov 14, 2020 17:25

I went through Styford only three weeks ago and didn't see any signs of activity or progress there.
“I’ve been wondering what that special place in hell looks like, for those who promoted Brexit without even a sketch of a plan how to carry it out safely.”

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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by Glenn A » Sun Nov 15, 2020 13:36

MFB wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 14:09
mbeatts wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 16:53
MFB wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 08:41
Any update on the A69 Hexham Bridge End roundabout upgrade? A nice example of future proofing finally coming good!
Going great, full excavated and on track.
Image
Looking good! Will make a big positive difference to traffic in the area and the slog to Carlisle ever so slightly smoother.
The Bridge End roundabout always looked like it was designed for the A69 to go underneath, so this will be an easier project than starting a completely new junction. It will mean an end to traffic stacking up on the slip roads at peak times.

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jackal
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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by jackal » Mon Nov 16, 2020 09:57

The major update for the A66, including designs for the new junctions, is now available:

https://assets.highwaysengland.co.uk/ro ... re_WEB.PDF

The new sections are fully grade separated: "there will be no gaps in the central reserve in the newly dualled sections". This is achieved through (by my count) nine new GSJs, as well as conversion of the limited access Appleby (west) and Bowes GSJs into full access. There are also numerous LILOs and access roads. It's an impressive scheme that will transform the A66.

What's slightly less impressive is the lack of detail about the M6 and A1(M) junctions, which suggests that the improvements there will be at the lower end of the spectrum. This ~£1bn scheme would have been a good opportunity to build freeflow connections.

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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by KeithW » Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:51

jackal wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 09:57
The major update for the A66, including designs for the new junctions, is now available:

https://assets.highwaysengland.co.uk/ro ... re_WEB.PDF

The new sections are fully grade separated: "there will be no gaps in the central reserve in the newly dualled sections". This is achieved through (by my count) nine new GSJs, as well as conversion of the limited access Appleby (west) and Bowes GSJs into full access. There are also numerous LILOs and access roads. It's an impressive scheme that will transform the A66.

What's slightly less impressive is the lack of detail about the M6 and A1(M) junctions, which suggests that the improvements there will be at the lower end of the spectrum. This ~£1bn scheme would have been a good opportunity to build freeflow connections.
The A1(M) junction was redone as part of the Leeming Barton upgrade so I dont expect any significant changes there. The main problem as far as I am concerned is they allowed an MSA and shopping centre to be built off the roundabout.

At the Penrith end I suspect any changes at the M6 junction will be tweaks to the off slips.and roundabout. There is scope to better separate traffic coming off the M6. On the south bound slip you have this absurd hatching instead of using the shoulder to separate eastbound and westbound A66 traffic.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.65476 ... 312!8i6656

The Northbound off slip is just as bad.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.65167 ... 312!8i6656

They are going to build an underpass for the A66 at the Kemplay Roundabout which should help. In my experience getting off the M6 was bad enough but after the junction you hit the back of the queue to Kemplay Bank.

What puzzles me is who was daft enough to allow these appalling junctions on the A66 west of the M6 ? This sort of thing was bad enough back in the 60's on the A1 !

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.65199 ... 312!8i6656
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.65207 ... 312!8i6656

As for improving the A1(M) and M6 junctions in any significant way that would make the whole scheme a lot more expensive and government departments have a real down on scope creep.

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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by Rob590 » Mon Nov 16, 2020 14:55

KeithW wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:51
jackal wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 09:57
The major update for the A66, including designs for the new junctions, is now available:

https://assets.highwaysengland.co.uk/ro ... re_WEB.PDF

The new sections are fully grade separated: "there will be no gaps in the central reserve in the newly dualled sections". This is achieved through (by my count) nine new GSJs, as well as conversion of the limited access Appleby (west) and Bowes GSJs into full access. There are also numerous LILOs and access roads. It's an impressive scheme that will transform the A66.

What's slightly less impressive is the lack of detail about the M6 and A1(M) junctions, which suggests that the improvements there will be at the lower end of the spectrum. This ~£1bn scheme would have been a good opportunity to build freeflow connections.
The A1(M) junction was redone as part of the Leeming Barton upgrade so I dont expect any significant changes there. The main problem as far as I am concerned is they allowed an MSA and shopping centre to be built off the roundabout.
The shopping area isn't going to be part of Scotch Corner-proper: it will be accesssed from the A6108/A6055 junction just to the south of J53.

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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by SouthWest Philip » Mon Nov 16, 2020 15:20

Rob590 wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 14:55
The shopping area isn't going to be part of Scotch Corner-proper: it will be accesssed from the A6108/A6055 junction just to the south of J53.
I'm going to hazard a guess that this shopping development is going to be built over the obvious line for a direct connection between the A66 and A1(M)(S)?

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Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by KeithW » Mon Nov 16, 2020 15:47

Rob590 wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 14:55

The shopping area isn't going to be part of Scotch Corner-proper: it will be accesssed from the A6108/A6055 junction just to the south of J53.
Yes but get to the site people will be coming off the A1(M) at Scotch Corner which is why there is a coming soon sign there. This will be generating more traffic on the roundabout.

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