Upgrading the A66 and A69

[Mark Hewitt]

Must've missed the bit where it's about Kemplay Bank not J40, sorry. Yeah, that one gets a bit busier but still isn't really terrible. Certainly not enough to justify shoving more D2s or flyovers all over the place.

Yeah of all the bottlenecks on that route that one doesn’t really spring to mind.

[jackal]

http://www.in-cumbria.com/news/80m-flyo ... 9aefacf-ds

I can't begin to understand how a long length of new road (presumably with its own GSJ) could be considered a more environmentally friendly solution than adding a single bridge and some slips. Land take and visual intrusion would be an order of magnitude greater. Pure NIMBYISM.

[Herned]

BBC news item on A66/A6:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-43742869

A proposed flyover at a busy junction near the Lake District would be "truly brutal", a council leader has said.

The council didn't mind having a drive-through KFC as the first thing entering the town from the A66, so they aren't that fussy

[vlad]

How big is this proposed flyover going to be? It's only going over a single roundabout. If you really will be able to see it for miles then I would be worried but I'd be comparing it to something like this which manages to hide fairly well till you get close.

Last time I checked the current A66 IS the D2 southern relief road. The old route terminated on the A6 near the castle. How much farther south does he want it to go ?

It'd have to go between Eamont Bridge and Clifton but then would need to end at a GSJ on the M6 as there's no obvious route to the west that avoids the Lake District. I can't see how M6 J39A would be less obtrusive than a flyover on the Penrith bypass.

They could always upgrade the A685 - it doesn't need much more than a bypass of Kirkby Stephen.

[Robert Kilcoyne]

It'd have to go between Eamont Bridge and Clifton but then would need to end at a GSJ on the M6 as there's no obvious route to the west that avoids the Lake District. I can't see how M6 J39A would be less obtrusive than a flyover on the Penrith bypass.

They could always upgrade the A685 - it doesn't need much more than a bypass of Kirkby Stephen.

A bypass for Kirkby Stephen would also eliminate the problem whereby HGV's have to use Junction 40 if travelling from the south towards Scotch Corner. It would provide a degree of resilience in the road network if the A66 is closed anywhere between Penrith and Brough.

[skiddaw05]

Must've missed the bit where it's about Kemplay Bank not J40, sorry. Yeah, that one gets a bit busier but still isn't really terrible. Certainly not enough to justify shoving more D2s or flyovers all over the place.

Yeah of all the bottlenecks on that route that one doesn’t really spring to mind.

Admittedly I only ever go this way in the summer holidays, but of all the problems encountered on the trans Pennine A66 the westbound queues to the A6 roundabout are usually the worst. However I expect if this was GSJd the problem would just transfer to the approach to the M6 roundabout.

[KeithW]

How big is this proposed flyover going to be? It's only going over a single roundabout. If you really will be able to see it for miles then I would be worried but I'd be comparing it to something like this which manages to hide fairly well till you get close.

Well given that 200 yards away access to the police and fire stations go though this underpass the phrase 'storm in a teacup' comes to mind.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.65645 ... 312!8i6656

Looking at the approaches the A6 actually rises to reach the roundabout. A modest cutting and an underpass seem a possibility at least although keeping the route open during construction might present some problems. Given that at the other end of the A66 they knocked down many of the grandest old buildings in Middlesbrough as well as most of North Ormesby to drive the A66 through I tend to take a jaundiced eye to Nimbyism.



We traded that for this.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.57849 ... authuser=0

[Robert Kilcoyne]

Looking at the approaches the A6 actually rises to reach the roundabout. A modest cutting and an underpass seem a possibility at least although keeping the route open during construction might present some problems.

This is the A6 Kemplay Bank just north of the bridge over the River Eamont (the Kemplay Bank roundabout is at the top of the hill):-
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.65169 ... 6656?hl=en

[Robert Kilcoyne]

Admittedly I only ever go this way in the summer holidays, but of all the problems encountered on the trans Pennine A66 the westbound queues to the A6 roundabout are usually the worst. However I expect if this was GSJd the problem would just transfer to the approach to the M6 roundabout.

When I have travelled through Penrith, the Kemplay Bank roundabout caused no delays. The big problem is the roundabout at M6 Junction 40. What does not help matters is that HGV's travelling northbound on the M6 (or travelling on the A66 westbound) cannot use the A685 so they are directed to use Junction 40. Also, Junction 40 is the northern gateway to the Lake District, particularly to Ullswater and the lakes around Keswick. If traffic volumes continue to increase on the A66 now that the A1(M) through North Yorkshire is complete the single carriageway sections west of Brough will surely have to be upgraded to dual carriageway and some consideration should then be given to building a northern bypass for Penrith, leaving the A66 between Center Parcs and Brougham, then passing east of Carleton and Beacon Hill, crossing the A6 at the roundabout with the B5305, and linking directly to the M6 at a new Junction 41A a few miles north of the current Junction 41. If you built this route, together with a bypass for Kirkby Stephen, it would not be necessary to improve Junction 40 or the Kemplay Bank Roundabout as East Anglia/Yorkshire to Carlisle/Scotland traffic and Lancashire to Scotch Corner/Teesside traffic would no longer need to use them.

[KeithW]

When I have travelled through Penrith, the Kemplay Bank roundabout caused no delays. The big problem is the roundabout at M6 Junction 40. What does not help matters is that HGV's travelling northbound on the M6 (or travelling on the A66 westbound) cannot use the A685 so they are directed to use Junction 40. Also, Junction 40 is the northern gateway to the Lake District, particularly to Ullswater and the lakes around Keswick. If traffic volumes continue to increase on the A66 now that the A1(M) through North Yorkshire is complete the single carriageway sections west of Brough will surely have to be upgraded to dual carriageway and some consideration should then be given to building a northern bypass for Penrith, leaving the A66 between Center Parcs and Brougham, then passing east of Carleton and Beacon Hill, crossing the A6 at the roundabout with the B5305, and linking directly to the M6 at a new Junction 41A a few miles north of the current Junction 41. If you built this route, together with a bypass for Kirkby Stephen, it would not be necessary to improve Junction 40 or the Kemplay Bank Roundabout as East Anglia/Yorkshire to Carlisle/Scotland traffic and Lancashire to Scotch Corner/Teesside traffic would no longer need to use them.

I find this analysis puzzling so let me try and understand.

If an HGV is travelling north up the M6 with the intention of heading west on the A66 towards Workington or North to Scotland they would hardly be using the A685 and heading east. It would after all only put them on the A66 heading back to J40 !

Its possible that some might want to use the EASTBOUND A66 but the road improvements needed around through Kirby Stephen would be far more obtrusive than a flyover outside Penrith and in addition the A685 would need considerable improvement. You have a fairly narrow and low bridge at Kirkby Stephen station for example. I really doubt there is a high volume of HGV's that are desperate to take this road anyway. If I were driving a 44 tonner up from Manchester to Teesside/Tyneside this would hardly be my chosen route.

A Northern bypass and a new J41A would hardly be a minor development but lets assume you build it then what ? There are no decent HGV roads west until Carlisle and the A590.
If you are an HGV heading towards the southern lakes and Barrow you would presumably leave the M6 at J36 and take the A590.

Now the final bit has me baffled

If you built this route, together with a bypass for Kirkby Stephen, it would not be necessary to improve Junction 40 or the Kemplay Bank Roundabout as East Anglia/Yorkshire to Carlisle/Scotland traffic and Lancashire to Scotch Corner/Teesside traffic would no longer need to use them.

I have used the route from both East Anglia and Yorkshire to Scotland more times than I care to remember.
From Yorkshire I use the A1(M) to the A66 and M6 at J40. Building a new northern bypass for Penrith AND a new J41A would be far more disruptive than a flyover/underpass for the A6 and an improvement to J40.

From East Anglia it is possible to take the A14 to the M1/M6 but once on the M6 you are hardly likely to leave at Tebay and go via Kirkby Stephen and Brough to a new J41A on the M6 via a long circuitous diversion.

If I am travelling from North Lancashire to I might go to Teesside via the A685/A66 and in fact I have done so many times but equally from Southern Lancashire I am just as likely to use the M62 or M65/A58. Given that the AADF on the A685 is around 7k I see little justification for major expenditure on this road and I doubt the good people of Kirkby Stephen would thank you for the passing trade a bypass would cost them.

I suspect what is really needed is an improvement at J40 and removal of the Kemplay Bank roundabout where I HAVE seen delays. In fact last summer coming back from Scotland I queued all the way from J40 to that roundabout in stop/start traffic. The major expected increase of traffic is on the A66 from the A1(M) to the M6 and this IS going to end up on the A66 south east of Penrith.

[Mark Hewitt]

As others have said it seems from streetview the roads rise up to that roundabout, so would it not be possible to dig down to put the mainline straight through. Much as they are doing on A19/A1058 (Silverlink)

[KeithW]

As others have said it seems from streetview the roads rise up to that roundabout, so would it not be possible to dig down to put the mainline straight through. Much as they are doing on A19/A1058 (Silverlink)

I don't see why not, they already did just that 200 metres away from the Kemplay Bank roundabout for the access road to the Police and Fire Rescue bases.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.65664 ... authuser=0

[wrinkly]

As others have said it seems from streetview the roads rise up to that roundabout, so would it not be possible to dig down to put the mainline straight through. Much as they are doing on A19/A1058 (Silverlink)

I don't see why not, they already did just that 200 metres away from the Kemplay Bank roundabout for the access road to the Police and Fire Rescue bases.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.65664 ... authuser=0

Whilst I agree that I don't see why they couldn't dig down, I would point out that the present A66 is on an embankment there, built in the late 1960s. The roads below it, giving access to the police and fire, are closer to natural ground level:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.65595 ... 312!8i6656

[Glenn A]

Must've missed the bit where it's about Kemplay Bank not J40, sorry. Yeah, that one gets a bit busier but still isn't really terrible. Certainly not enough to justify shoving more D2s or flyovers all over the place.

Yeah of all the bottlenecks on that route that one doesn’t really spring to mind.

Admittedly I only ever go this way in the summer holidays, but of all the problems encountered on the trans Pennine A66 the westbound queues to the A6 roundabout are usually the worst. However I expect if this was GSJd the problem would just transfer to the approach to the M6 roundabout.

Joining the A66 from the A686 can be a pain at rush hour, but as this isn't a particularly busy road outside of summer biking season, it's not such a huge issue.

[Glenn A]

The A69, while not as busy as the A66, is still a very congested road and suffers from the problem of being almost completely S2 west of Hexham, with sections such as Greenhead to Brampton and Brampton to Carlisle, which is the only section of the road to remain almost the same as in the seventies, being badly congested and prone to accidents. I'd recommend at the very least a D2 by pass of Low Row and an S2 by pass of Warwick Bridge, and ideally dual the entire section from Greenhead to Brampton and extend the D2 from the end of the Hexham by pass to Haydon Bridge.

[Robert Kilcoyne]

The A69, while not as busy as the A66, is still a very congested road and suffers from the problem of being almost completely S2 west of Hexham, with sections such as Greenhead to Brampton and Brampton to Carlisle, which is the only section of the road to remain almost the same as in the seventies, being badly congested and prone to accidents. I'd recommend at the very least a D2 by pass of Low Row and an S2 by pass of Warwick Bridge, and ideally dual the entire section from Greenhead to Brampton and extend the D2 from the end of the Hexham by pass to Haydon Bridge.

The long term future of the A69 in Cumbria may be dependent on the success (or otherwise) of Carlisle Airport. If the airport site is developed further, I would not be surprised to see the A69 rerouted west of Brampton to take over the A689 and maybe upgraded to D2 and the current A69 through Warwick Bridge downgraded to A6xxx. A new junction 43A could be built on the M6 near Linstock. The A69 could then terminate at Junction 44 with the A595 rerouted over the Carlisle Northern Development Route.

[Glenn A]

The A69, while not as busy as the A66, is still a very congested road and suffers from the problem of being almost completely S2 west of Hexham, with sections such as Greenhead to Brampton and Brampton to Carlisle, which is the only section of the road to remain almost the same as in the seventies, being badly congested and prone to accidents. I'd recommend at the very least a D2 by pass of Low Row and an S2 by pass of Warwick Bridge, and ideally dual the entire section from Greenhead to Brampton and extend the D2 from the end of the Hexham by pass to Haydon Bridge.

The long term future of the A69 in Cumbria may be dependent on the success (or otherwise) of Carlisle Airport. If the airport site is developed further, I would not be surprised to see the A69 rerouted west of Brampton to take over the A689 and maybe upgraded to D2 and the current A69 through Warwick Bridge downgraded to A6xxx. A new junction 43A could be built on the M6 near Linstock. The A69 could then terminate at Junction 44 with the A595 rerouted over the Carlisle Northern Development Route.

I was thinking this, if Carlisle Airport proves popular. The A69 could take over this route as a D2, and the bridge at Linstock could be removed and turned into a motorway junction, where the A69 would end, the A689 number could then be used for the former A69 from Brampton to Carlisle.

[KeithW]

I was thinking this, if Carlisle Airport proves popular. The A69 could take over this route as a D2, and the bridge at Linstock could be removed and turned into a motorway junction, where the A69 would end, the A689 number could then be used for the former A69 from Brampton to Carlisle.

I cant see Carlisle Airport being a runaway success. Apart from minor problems such as not having a terminal (the Cafe at the control tower hardly counts) and no scheduled flights right now they are not exactly near a major population centre. Logan Air are due to start flying out of there sometime this year but the largest aircraft they fly is a 34 seater. A more likely generator of traffic is the Stobart Warehouse and Distribution hub they are supposedly building there. With an AADF of just under 8k the A689 is hardly overloaded.

The A69 is potentialy much better sited for a Tyneside to M6/M74 link being equally suited to feed traffic North and South

[Glenn A]

I was thinking this, if Carlisle Airport proves popular. The A69 could take over this route as a D2, and the bridge at Linstock could be removed and turned into a motorway junction, where the A69 would end, the A689 number could then be used for the former A69 from Brampton to Carlisle.

I cant see Carlisle Airport being a runaway success. Apart from minor problems such as not having a terminal (the Cafe at the control tower hardly counts) and no scheduled flights right now they are not exactly near a major population centre. Logan Air are due to start flying out of there sometime this year but the largest aircraft they fly is a 34 seater. A more likely generator of traffic is the Stobart Warehouse and Distribution hub they are supposedly building there. With an AADF of just under 8k the A689 is hardly overloaded.

The A69 is potentialy much better sited for a Tyneside to M6/M74 link being equally suited to feed traffic North and South

Flights to Dublin, Belfast and Southend start in June. I don't think it will ever rival Newcastle, and the airport has a long series of failures, but it will probably be on a par with Durham Tees Valley.

[jackal]

An update of sorts:

http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/A66-u ... f6bf678-ds

It sounds like 'ambitious' A66 dualling plans are still alive despite the poor BCR mentioned in a stakeholder presentation a couple of pages back.