Upgrading the A66 and A69

The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.

There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).

Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.

Moderator: Site Management Team

Post Reply
User avatar
A303Chris
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 3587
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 14:01
Location: Reading

Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by A303Chris »

I've just looked at Highways England WebTris system for the Average Daily Flow for the both the A66 and A69 for 2019.

A66 west of Bowes is

9,370 E/B (28.5% HGV's)
9,346 W/B (27.8% HGV's)

A69 east of Haltwhistle

6,703 W/B (13.7% HGV's)
6,720 E/B (14.1% HGV's)

The A66 flows are 50% greater for total flow and carry 100% more HGV's than the A69, so you can see why money is being spent on the A66.

An ADT of only 13,423 as is the case on the A69 can easily accommodate S 2+1 which this section is provided with. It is very unlikely that a full dual carriageway between Hexham and Brampton is going to get a very good cost benefit analysis.

On a separate point, while going W/B on the A69 at Brampton the M6 North is signed via the A689 to J44 and the M6 South via the A66 to J43.

However on the M6 southbound, there is no reference to Newcastle (A69) on the southbound approach to J44.

I am aware the A689 is not trunked but you would think they would be consistent.
Last edited by A303Chris on Tue Apr 13, 2021 14:09, edited 1 time in total.
The M25 - The road to nowhere
User avatar
KeithW
Member
Posts: 19181
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 13:25
Location: Marton-In-Cleveland North Yorks

Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by KeithW »

A303Chris wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 14:06 I've just looked at Highways England WebTris system for the Average Daily Flow for the both the A66 and A69 for 2019.

A66 west of Bowes is

9,370 E/B (28.5% HGV's)
9,346 W/B (27.8% HGV's)

A69 east of Haltwhistle

6,703 W/B (13.7% HGV's)
6,720 E/B (14.1% HGV's)

The A66 flows are 50% greater for total flow and carry 100% more HGV's than the A69, so you can see why money is being spent on the A66.

An ADT of only 13,423 as is the case on the A69 can easily accommodate S 2+1 which this section is provided with. It is very unlikely that a full dual carriageway between Hexham and Brampton is going to get a very good cost benefit analysis.

On a separate point, while going W/B on the A69 at Brampton the M6 North is signed via the A689 to J44 and the M6 South via the A66 to J44.

However on the M6 southbound, there is no reference to Newcastle (A69) on the southbound approach to J44.

I am aware the A689 is not trunked but you would think they would be consistent.
I am convinced the A66 would carry more traffic if the road was better. With the M62 chocka its an obvious short cut from the east to the M6, A75 and Western Scotland. I agree that the A689 should be signed to Newcastle when south bound on the M6
Glenn A
Member
Posts: 9751
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 19:31
Location: Cumbria

Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by Glenn A »

There is the hopeless A69 from Brampton to jct 43 of the M6, which is largely as it was 50 years ago. While traffic heading from the North East to Scotland will mostly use the A689, the A69 remains an important route for those heading into Carlisle city centre from the east. Warwick Bridge urgently needs a by pass.
User avatar
Mark Hewitt
Member
Posts: 31389
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 12:54
Location: Chester-le-Street

Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by Mark Hewitt »

KeithW wrote:
A303Chris wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 14:06 I've just looked at Highways England WebTris system for the Average Daily Flow for the both the A66 and A69 for 2019.

A66 west of Bowes is

9,370 E/B (28.5% HGV's)
9,346 W/B (27.8% HGV's)

A69 east of Haltwhistle

6,703 W/B (13.7% HGV's)
6,720 E/B (14.1% HGV's)

The A66 flows are 50% greater for total flow and carry 100% more HGV's than the A69, so you can see why money is being spent on the A66.

An ADT of only 13,423 as is the case on the A69 can easily accommodate S 2+1 which this section is provided with. It is very unlikely that a full dual carriageway between Hexham and Brampton is going to get a very good cost benefit analysis.

On a separate point, while going W/B on the A69 at Brampton the M6 North is signed via the A689 to J44 and the M6 South via the A66 to J44.

However on the M6 southbound, there is no reference to Newcastle (A69) on the southbound approach to J44.

I am aware the A689 is not trunked but you would think they would be consistent.
I am convinced the A66 would carry more traffic if the road was better. With the M62 chocka its an obvious short cut from the east to the M6, A75 and Western Scotland. I agree that the A689 should be signed to Newcastle when south bound on the M6
Agreed. It's quite insane that there remains significant sections of S2 on the A66 trans pennine route. The 2006 designation of it being a route of local importance was entirely wrong.
User avatar
A72
Member
Posts: 787
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2012 17:21
Location: Newtown St Boswells, Scottish Borders

Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by A72 »

Glenn A wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 15:11Also the S2+1 sections between Haltwhistle and Haydon Bridge remove the need for dualling here.
Unless the entire length of these sections has one lane coned-off, or the second HGV in line decides to have an elephant race with the lead truck.
The 7-Zone Challenge
A roads: 71/71
B roads: 181/181
Total: 252/252

Completed: 04/11/20.
User avatar
Big L
Deputy Site Manager
Posts: 7500
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 20:36
Location: B5012

Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by Big L »

A72 wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 05:04
Glenn A wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 15:11Also the S2+1 sections between Haltwhistle and Haydon Bridge remove the need for dualling here.
Unless the entire length of these sections has one lane coned-off, or the second HGV in line decides to have an elephant race with the lead truck.
I'm fairly sure that either of those things would cripple the capacity of dual carriageway too.
Make poetry history.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Help with maps using the new online calibrator.
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki.
User avatar
Mark Hewitt
Member
Posts: 31389
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 12:54
Location: Chester-le-Street

Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by Mark Hewitt »

Big L wrote:
A72 wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 05:04
Glenn A wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 15:11Also the S2+1 sections between Haltwhistle and Haydon Bridge remove the need for dualling here.
Unless the entire length of these sections has one lane coned-off, or the second HGV in line decides to have an elephant race with the lead truck.
I'm fairly sure that either of those things would cripple the capacity of dual carriageway too.
I've crossed the A66 before where the entire central D2 section was coned down to one lane with a 40mph speed limit. Now that was frustrating.
User avatar
KeithW
Member
Posts: 19181
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 13:25
Location: Marton-In-Cleveland North Yorks

Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by KeithW »

Big L wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 08:26
A72 wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 05:04
Glenn A wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 15:11Also the S2+1 sections between Haltwhistle and Haydon Bridge remove the need for dualling here.
Unless the entire length of these sections has one lane coned-off, or the second HGV in line decides to have an elephant race with the lead truck.
I'm fairly sure that either of those things would cripple the capacity of dual carriageway too.

Yes but less so in the case of Elephant Racing unless the dual carriageway is also seriously overloaded it typically reduces speed to around 50 mph or so. Remove a lane and the capacity is at least halved.

In the case of the A1 from Buckden to Blyth the single largest improvement by far was getting rid of the roundabouts. On a bank holiday or summer weekend the queues could be several miles long. The same thing is true of the A66 at both Scotch Corner and Penrith. Some improvements were made by tinkering with lane layouts but really both should be free flow.

After the upgrade has been completed the Penrith end should flow much more smoothly with the underpass of the Kemplay Bank Roundabout. At Scotch Corner Highways England have undertaken a study to improve the situation but no detailed plans have been made but my suspicion is that little will be done except some minor tinkering and perhaps an express lane or 2. The reality is that between the hotel, caravan park, car dealership, services and go help us a planned shopping centre its hard to see what can be done without a major rebuild except perhaps to provide a free flow from the A66 eastbound to the A1(M) northbound.
Glenn A
Member
Posts: 9751
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 19:31
Location: Cumbria

Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by Glenn A »

One should not forget that there is a busy section of the A66 where it multiplexes with the A595 in west Cumbria that was put forward by Cumbria County Council in 2009 as a case for dualling. This fell through due to a lack of interest in Westminster, but is a busy stretch of road with a nasty junction for Brigham and Broughton Moor.
User avatar
A72
Member
Posts: 787
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2012 17:21
Location: Newtown St Boswells, Scottish Borders

Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by A72 »

Big L wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 08:26
A72 wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 05:04
Glenn A wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 15:11Also the S2+1 sections between Haltwhistle and Haydon Bridge remove the need for dualling here.
Unless the entire length of these sections has one lane coned-off, or the second HGV in line decides to have an elephant race with the lead truck.
I'm fairly sure that either of those things would cripple the capacity of dual carriageway too.
Only if the dual carriageway is as short as the A69's S2+1 sections. These sections are uphill, so an elephant race is almost guaranteed to take-up the entire length
The 7-Zone Challenge
A roads: 71/71
B roads: 181/181
Total: 252/252

Completed: 04/11/20.
User avatar
Mark Hewitt
Member
Posts: 31389
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 12:54
Location: Chester-le-Street

Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by Mark Hewitt »

Glenn A wrote:One should not forget that there is a busy section of the A66 where it multiplexes with the A595 in west Cumbria that was put forward by Cumbria County Council in 2009 as a case for dualling. This fell through due to a lack of interest in Westminster, but is a busy stretch of road with a nasty junction for Brigham and Broughton Moor.
There are very few parts of the A66 that don't justify dualling.
MFB
Member
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2018 15:06

Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by MFB »

Glenn A wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:58 One should not forget that there is a busy section of the A66 where it multiplexes with the A595 in west Cumbria that was put forward by Cumbria County Council in 2009 as a case for dualling. This fell through due to a lack of interest in Westminster, but is a busy stretch of road with a nasty junction for Brigham and Broughton Moor.
Having to build another Marron bridge would cost a fair bit though!

I saw a proposed roundabout at that junction, any news on that?
User avatar
jackal
Member
Posts: 7541
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 23:33
Location: M6

Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by jackal »

"Early work underway on £1bn trans-Pennine road upgrade" - ground investigations and the like.

“This work is vitally important as we head towards a final public consultation on the options and submitting our application to the Planning Inspectorate which, subject to the outcome, will allow us to start construction in 2024.”

https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest ... 2-04-2021/
User avatar
wrinkly
Member
Posts: 8984
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:17
Location: Leeds

Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by wrinkly »

Probably based on this item on the HE website:

https://highwaysengland.co.uk/our-work/ ... under-way/

What does the guy say his name is at the beginning of the video? Sounds like Andy Junction!

Edit: no, you can turn captions on, it's Andy Johnson.
Glenn A
Member
Posts: 9751
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 19:31
Location: Cumbria

Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by Glenn A »

MFB wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 13:06
Glenn A wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:58 One should not forget that there is a busy section of the A66 where it multiplexes with the A595 in west Cumbria that was put forward by Cumbria County Council in 2009 as a case for dualling. This fell through due to a lack of interest in Westminster, but is a busy stretch of road with a nasty junction for Brigham and Broughton Moor.
Having to build another Marron bridge would cost a fair bit though!

I saw a proposed roundabout at that junction, any news on that?
The roundabout is still in the planning stage, but I would have liked the dualling to have gone ahead as this is a busy stretch of S2, probably the busiest west of Keswick.
tibsy
Member
Posts: 38
Joined: Sat May 12, 2007 17:51
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne

Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by tibsy »

Glenn A wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 18:50 There is the hopeless A69 from Brampton to jct 43 of the M6, which is largely as it was 50 years ago. While traffic heading from the North East to Scotland will mostly use the A689, the A69 remains an important route for those heading into Carlisle city centre from the east. Warwick Bridge urgently needs a by pass.
At last a voice of reason! THIS is what's needed (Warwick Bridge bypass). Not A689 which is no use for going to Carlisle or M6 Southbound nor the slight but costly improvements at Hexham and Corbridge roundabouts
Glenn A
Member
Posts: 9751
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 19:31
Location: Cumbria

Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by Glenn A »

tibsy wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 22:27
Glenn A wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 18:50 There is the hopeless A69 from Brampton to jct 43 of the M6, which is largely as it was 50 years ago. While traffic heading from the North East to Scotland will mostly use the A689, the A69 remains an important route for those heading into Carlisle city centre from the east. Warwick Bridge urgently needs a by pass.
At last a voice of reason! THIS is what's needed (Warwick Bridge bypass). Not A689 which is no use for going to Carlisle or M6 Southbound nor the slight but costly improvements at Hexham and Corbridge roundabouts
Thankyou, there has been talk on here of re routing the A69 along the A689 to Greymoorhill( jct 44), but this would do nothing to improve the current A69, which is a poor road and busy. Warwick Bridge needs a by pass that locals have been demanding for decades.
jabbaboy
Member
Posts: 348
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 09:25
Location: Newcastle

Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by jabbaboy »

Glenn A wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 19:25
tibsy wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 22:27
Glenn A wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 18:50 There is the hopeless A69 from Brampton to jct 43 of the M6, which is largely as it was 50 years ago. While traffic heading from the North East to Scotland will mostly use the A689, the A69 remains an important route for those heading into Carlisle city centre from the east. Warwick Bridge urgently needs a by pass.
At last a voice of reason! THIS is what's needed (Warwick Bridge bypass). Not A689 which is no use for going to Carlisle or M6 Southbound nor the slight but costly improvements at Hexham and Corbridge roundabouts
Thankyou, there has been talk on here of re routing the A69 along the A689 to Greymoorhill( jct 44), but this would do nothing to improve the current A69, which is a poor road and busy. Warwick Bridge needs a by pass that locals have been demanding for decades.
I never understood why they don't just build new South facing slips on the B6264 and direct Carlisle traffic from the A69 via the A689 and B6264 and M6 traffic to join there. The route is a much better quality route and quicker into Carlisle regardless to a Warwick Bridge Bypass and is pretty much WS2 direct into the centre which can't be said about the A69 which can be a right slog along Warwick Road if you hit it at the wrong time.
User avatar
jackal
Member
Posts: 7541
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 23:33
Location: M6

Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by jackal »

jabbaboy wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 15:12 I never understood why they don't just build new South facing slips on the B6264 and direct Carlisle traffic from the A69 via the A689 and B6264 and M6 traffic to join there. The route is a much better quality route and quicker into Carlisle regardless to a Warwick Bridge Bypass and is pretty much WS2 direct into the centre which can't be said about the A69 which can be a right slog along Warwick Road if you hit it at the wrong time.
The B6264 is a residential road. Warwick Rd is as well of course but the threshold for a new scheme is much higher than the threshold for maintaining the status quo.
Glenn A
Member
Posts: 9751
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 19:31
Location: Cumbria

Re: Upgrading the A66 and A69

Post by Glenn A »

jackal wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 17:58
jabbaboy wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 15:12 I never understood why they don't just build new South facing slips on the B6264 and direct Carlisle traffic from the A69 via the A689 and B6264 and M6 traffic to join there. The route is a much better quality route and quicker into Carlisle regardless to a Warwick Bridge Bypass and is pretty much WS2 direct into the centre which can't be said about the A69 which can be a right slog along Warwick Road if you hit it at the wrong time.
The B6264 is a residential road. Warwick Rd is as well of course but the threshold for a new scheme is much higher than the threshold for maintaining the status quo.
The B6264 used to continue as far as Brampton until the A689 replaced it with a by pass of Crosby on Eden. Also the section from the roundabout to jct 44 was once unclassified, although there was a sign with M6 in brackets.
Post Reply