A27 Worthing and Lancing improvement
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Re: A27 Worthing and Lancing improvement
The local MPs aren't impressed: https://www.timloughton.com/news/worthi ... damp-squib
Can see the whole lot going the same way as Chichester.
Can see the whole lot going the same way as Chichester.
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Re: A27 Worthing and Lancing improvement
There are some details on rejected options in the exhibition panels:
The MP's preferred solution of grade separated junctions only really makes sense if you dual as well (they're unclear on this point). Given a partially grade separated dual carriageway is priced at £250m-£350m, you're probably looking at £500m+ for full grade separation.Option - Type of carriageway - Junction Design - Access to properties and side roads - Cost Range
Option 2 - Single - Flyovers and underpasses - Maintained - Discarded early as well in excess of the upper budget
Option 3 - Dual - Junction improvements (no flyovers or underpasses) - Maintained - Up to £274 million
Option 3A - Dual (narrow) - Junction improvements (no flyovers or underpasses) - Maintained - Up to £238 million
Option 4 - Dual - Flyovers and underpasses - Maintained - Discarded early as well in excess of the upper budget.
Option 5 - Dual - Flyovers and underpasses - Maintained via service roads to key junctions - Discarded early as well in excess of the upper budget.
Hybrid - Dual - Combination of flyovers and underpasses and junction improvements - Maintained - £250 million to £350 million
There has been some local interest in tunnelling and a new northern ‘bypass’
route, but these have also been discounted:
Tunnelling: would cost £1.2 to £1.4 billion and provide poor value for money
Northern ‘bypass’ (A280 Long Furlong, A27 and A283 Steyning Road
/ Washington Road): the route is within the South Downs National
Park, which is protected. Also it would cost considerably more that the
economic benefits gained.
- sotonsteve
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Re: A27 Worthing and Lancing improvement
Tinkering with junctions and not considering the route through Worthing and Lancing as a whole, let alone the A27 trunk road as a whole. Very short sighted, won't work, waste of time and money. There is only one ultimate scheme that will be needed, and that is a dual two lane expressway. Anything less is severe compromise.
Re: A27 Worthing and Lancing improvement
Oh dear.
But it's pretty much what I was half expecting for the budget and the route.
But it's pretty much what I was half expecting for the budget and the route.
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Re: A27 Worthing and Lancing improvement
A complete waste of time and money. All it will do is cause congestion while the junction tweeks are carried out and more capacity for stacking once it's open. Why not divert the money to East of Lewis and finish off the Polegate bypass and wait until £500m is available in a later roads period.
Re: A27 Worthing and Lancing improvement
As improvement plans got that is pretty pathetic. I don't know the road, but I imagine the biggest problem is not the junctions but the overall capacity of the road, given that either side of Worthing is D2. Making it at least 2 lanes each way has to be the bigger priority. However, short of large scale demolition, tunneling or a long bypass (through the National Park) there is clearly no way to acheive this.
I don't low what would be the least undesirable way of dualling the road. Demolition and online upgrade I suppose, creating an urban/suburban expressway. Great for long distance traffic but not great for locals!
Makes Twyford Down, Hindhead and Stonehenge look a simple fixes by comparison.
I don't low what would be the least undesirable way of dualling the road. Demolition and online upgrade I suppose, creating an urban/suburban expressway. Great for long distance traffic but not great for locals!
Makes Twyford Down, Hindhead and Stonehenge look a simple fixes by comparison.
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Re: A27 Worthing and Lancing improvement
Why is this scheme so difficult to imagine taking shape?? It actually passed its public inquiry - only to be cancelled because it was election time (1997), and the then government were scared stiff of losing seats. Demolition is probably the only viable solution.Richardf wrote:As improvement plans got that is pretty pathetic. I don't know the road, but I imagine the biggest problem is not the junctions but the overall capacity of the road, given that either side of Worthing is D2. Making it at least 2 lanes each way has to be the bigger priority. However, short of large scale demolition, tunneling or a long bypass (through the National Park) there is clearly no way to acheive this.
I don't low what would be the least undesirable way of dualling the road. Demolition and online upgrade I suppose, creating an urban/suburban expressway. Great for long distance traffic but not great for locals!
Makes Twyford Down, Hindhead and Stonehenge look a simple fixes by comparison.
But think about the long-term benefits, cleaner air and reduced emissions, resulting from freer flowing traffic, journey reliability increased... I just can't understand why even Road supporters have to be so negative about this.
Re: A27 Worthing and Lancing improvement
It may yet suffer 'death by 1000 cuts' Chichester-style...Fluid Dynamics wrote:A complete waste of time and money. All it will do is cause congestion while the junction tweeks are carried out and more capacity for stacking once it's open. Why not divert the money to East of Lewis and finish off the Polegate bypass and wait until £500m is available in a later roads period.
Re: A27 Worthing and Lancing improvement
On local TV last night, they were saying that 2/3rds of the traffic is local, so a bypass wouldn't help much. I would have thought there is a lot of suppressed demand, which would use the A27 once it was dualled throughout. Is it known how many potential A27 users, take the M25/M23/M20 instead?
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Re: A27 Worthing and Lancing improvement
The feasibility study I quoted on page 1 indicates that a tunnel under Worthing wouldn't help traffic in the town. While this seems an exaggeration, it is probably true that you need at least one intermediate junction to get the full benefit. The 90s scheme included shorter tunnelling, so something like that (minus the conspicuous viaduct) might do the job.
- RichardA35
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Re: A27 Worthing and Lancing improvement
So reading the A27 corridor study referenced in the Arundel thread, the Worthing and Lancing improvements are already the "do minimum" option of localised improvements. It looks like this option was selected ahead of the local dualling on its deliverability within a short timescale, lack of complexity and cheapness.jackal wrote:There are some details on rejected options in the exhibition panels:
The MP's preferred solution of grade separated junctions only really makes sense if you dual as well (they're unclear on this point). Given a partially grade separated dual carriageway is priced at £250m-£350m, you're probably looking at £500m+ for full grade separation.Option - Type of carriageway - Junction Design - Access to properties and side roads - Cost Range
Option 2 - Single - Flyovers and underpasses - Maintained - Discarded early as well in excess of the upper budget
Option 3 - Dual - Junction improvements (no flyovers or underpasses) - Maintained - Up to £274 million
Option 3A - Dual (narrow) - Junction improvements (no flyovers or underpasses) - Maintained - Up to £238 million
Option 4 - Dual - Flyovers and underpasses - Maintained - Discarded early as well in excess of the upper budget.
Option 5 - Dual - Flyovers and underpasses - Maintained via service roads to key junctions - Discarded early as well in excess of the upper budget.
Hybrid - Dual - Combination of flyovers and underpasses and junction improvements - Maintained - £250 million to £350 million
There has been some local interest in tunnelling and a new northern ‘bypass’
route, but these have also been discounted:
Tunnelling: would cost £1.2 to £1.4 billion and provide poor value for money
Northern ‘bypass’ (A280 Long Furlong, A27 and A283 Steyning Road
/ Washington Road): the route is within the South Downs National
Park, which is protected. Also it would cost considerably more that the
economic benefits gained.
On a wider view of the HE, the discipline in working within the RIS will lead to solutions being devised and delivered within timescales, which is to be applauded. Unfortunately the strategic view of "expressways" seems to have been thrown away here and we are seeing this scheme promoted seemingly simply on the basis that "something must be done".
Re: A27 Worthing and Lancing improvement
I think what frustrates me about these piecemeal improvements is the lack of long-term vision. If we sat around a table and asked everyone what we’d like the South Coast Trunk Road to look like in 2050 (or 2100!) then most people would say a motorway or expressway is appropriate. So why not develop schemes with that end goal in mind?
Re: A27 Worthing and Lancing improvement
That's probably true of most trunk roads, and it would be naive to think that a bypass of Worthing would leave tumbleweed rolling down the deserted old A27. The old road would continue to be busy with people travelling localling to and from Worthing and Lancing.SteveA30 wrote:On local TV last night, they were saying that 2/3rds of the traffic is local, so a bypass wouldn't help much. I would have thought there is a lot of suppressed demand, which would use the A27 once it was dualled throughout. Is it known how many potential A27 users, take the M25/M23/M20 instead?
But to say that's a reason not to provide a bypass is utter nonsense, IMO. How many journeys between, say, Brighton and Southampton are made via other unsuitable routes, delayed badly or not made at all because Worthing presents such a major obstacle? How much trade in Worthing is lost because those local journeys are caught up in this trunk road nightmare?
Above all, it makes no sense that Highways England would want to continue providing a trunk road for all that local traffic to come and go when it completely fails to serve the strategic traffic that is supposedly their "customer" base.
Chris
Roads.org.uk
Roads.org.uk
- Johnathan404
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Re: A27 Worthing and Lancing improvement
Could A27 improvements have been made a condition of an expansion at Gatwick?
Anyone coming from the Portsmouth urban area as far along the coast as Fontwell will use the B2139 to get to their local major airport. Clearly, this is not what B-roads are for.
Since Hindhead opened most people will use that, but reluctantly because nobody wants to put their flight at the hands of the M25. An improvement would therefore take traffic away from the M3/A31/A3 route from Southampton and beyond, too.
Anyone coming from the Portsmouth urban area as far along the coast as Fontwell will use the B2139 to get to their local major airport. Clearly, this is not what B-roads are for.
Since Hindhead opened most people will use that, but reluctantly because nobody wants to put their flight at the hands of the M25. An improvement would therefore take traffic away from the M3/A31/A3 route from Southampton and beyond, too.
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- sotonsteve
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Re: A27 Worthing and Lancing improvement
If the A27 isn't going to be treated like a strategic road, should it actually be a strategic road?
There are much worse cases out there. For example, Brighton to Ashford is quicker via the A23/M23/M25/M20 at any time of day compared with the A27/A259/A2070, and Southampton to Bristol is quicker via the A34/M4 than the A36 at any time of day too. These routes are very local in nature, and no strategic traffic in its right mind would use them, and there are little or no chances of them ever being upgraded to any remotely decent standard, so why are they still trunk routes if there is zero benefit of through traffic using them? Worthing, of course, is different, as the A27 from Portsmouth to Brighton is always quicker than the A3/M25/M23/A23, and the road is dramatically higher standard than some of these other pretend trunk roads. Still, there is the very real risk of the A27 between Portsmouth and Brighton being put into the same "forget and pretend it doesn't exist" box if improvements at Chichester, Arundel and Worthing are all chickened out of.
There are much worse cases out there. For example, Brighton to Ashford is quicker via the A23/M23/M25/M20 at any time of day compared with the A27/A259/A2070, and Southampton to Bristol is quicker via the A34/M4 than the A36 at any time of day too. These routes are very local in nature, and no strategic traffic in its right mind would use them, and there are little or no chances of them ever being upgraded to any remotely decent standard, so why are they still trunk routes if there is zero benefit of through traffic using them? Worthing, of course, is different, as the A27 from Portsmouth to Brighton is always quicker than the A3/M25/M23/A23, and the road is dramatically higher standard than some of these other pretend trunk roads. Still, there is the very real risk of the A27 between Portsmouth and Brighton being put into the same "forget and pretend it doesn't exist" box if improvements at Chichester, Arundel and Worthing are all chickened out of.
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Re: A27 Worthing and Lancing improvement
I grew up within sight of the A27, specifically the 4 lane Farlington bypass. My childhood and early adulthood witnessed continuing improvements, widening the Farlington bypass, GSJ at Langstone junction, Havant to Chichester, Westhampnett Bypass, Fontwell Bypass, Crossbush bypass, Patching Improvement, Brighton Bypass and Pevensey Bypass and then... in over 20 Years just half the Polegate Bypass and a watered down improvement to the A27/26 multiplex.
There were proposals to improve the whole route up to Hythe/M20 to improve access to the Channel Tunnel but this was all lost in the cuts over the past 3 decades. I doubt whether I will ever see the route as far as Eastbourne improved to Expressway standard
There were proposals to improve the whole route up to Hythe/M20 to improve access to the Channel Tunnel but this was all lost in the cuts over the past 3 decades. I doubt whether I will ever see the route as far as Eastbourne improved to Expressway standard
Re: A27 Worthing and Lancing improvement
Converting the existing S2 to HQDC would probably require compulsory purchase of well over 100 (very expensive) houses, and would blight hundreds more, just to do the bit between Durrington and Lyons Farm. It would be a VERY brave politician that signed that one off!Richardf wrote:I don't low what would be the least undesirable way of dualling the road. Demolition and online upgrade I suppose, creating an urban/suburban expressway. Great for long distance traffic but not great for locals!
How many road projects in the last 30 years have destroyed so many homes?
Re: A27 Worthing and Lancing improvement
It needs to go straight through the centre of the graveyard next to the A24 roundabout, through the middle of the houses on the other side of the A24, straight through the middle of the golf course then around the northern edge of North Lancing - smashing through the national park all the way.
OK, that's never going to happen. But I really can't see a solution that doesn't involve someone getting upset. I can see why the plans have ended up as feeble as they are because, even with a huge budget I can't see how anyone could do anything sensible with it.
There's a lovely trench for the new Rampion offshore wind farm power cable on Google Earth between Lancing and Worthing. They're clearly less bothered about a straight line than roads are.
OK, that's never going to happen. But I really can't see a solution that doesn't involve someone getting upset. I can see why the plans have ended up as feeble as they are because, even with a huge budget I can't see how anyone could do anything sensible with it.
There's a lovely trench for the new Rampion offshore wind farm power cable on Google Earth between Lancing and Worthing. They're clearly less bothered about a straight line than roads are.
Re: A27 Worthing and Lancing improvement
Perhaps that's the answer ... a southern bypass for Worthing. Put the A27 on stilts half a mile out to sea.doofer wrote:There's a lovely trench for the new Rampion offshore wind farm power cable on Google Earth between Lancing and Worthing. They're clearly less bothered about a straight line than roads are.
Re: A27 Worthing and Lancing improvement
The only likely way it will ever be an expressway is by tunnelling... there is no way any online or surface option can be done. It is 'only' 3 ish miles from west of Durrington to the start of the Sompting bypass. The south coast population is in the millions, anywhere else in the developed world would have had a motorway 30 years ago