A27 Worthing and Lancing improvement

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jackal
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A27 Worthing and Lancing improvement

Post by jackal »

Highways England wrote: The Worthing and Lancing improvement scheme aims to improve the capacity of the road and junctions along the stretch of single carriageway in Worthing and the narrow dual carriageway in Lancing. The extent and scale of the improvements, including the option of full dualling, are to be agreed in consultation with West Sussex County Council and the public, via a full consultation, in accordance with the Roads Investment Strategy.
What I find confusing is that the cost estimate is £50m-£100m. How could a 'full dualling' option be done for anything like this price? Surely either a tunnel, massive detour or large scale property purchases/demolition would be required? Is a smaller scale improvement (maybe online S2+1 with side road closures) a fait accompli?

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Truvelo
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Re: A27 Worthing and Lancing improvement

Post by Truvelo »

This website has some details including a map of the abandoned 1992 proposals which includes full grade separation. I doubt that would be possible now for £100m.
How would you like your grade separations, Sir?
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jackal
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Re: A27 Worthing and Lancing improvement

Post by jackal »

Truvelo wrote:This website has some details including a map of the abandoned 1992 proposals which includes full grade separation. I doubt that would be possible now for £100m.
Indicative costs and benefits cost ratios from here, pp. 42, 44:

A
(Tunnelling)
£1.2bn-£1.4bn
Moderate
Negative

B & E
(Tunnel/
Dualling)
£450m-£950m
Slight to
Moderate
Positive

C & D
(Bypass/
Tunnel) /
(Bypass/
Dualling)
£550m-£950m
Slight to
Moderate
Positive

F
(Online Dualling)
£75m-£125m
Significant
Positive

G
LOW COST
(Localised
improvements)
£50m
Moderate
Positive
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c2R
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Re: A27 Worthing and Lancing improvement

Post by c2R »

From the report then, it appears that the online dualling would not include grade separation, which is why the cost is comparitively low and it wins on cost/benefit ratio...
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Re: A27 Worthing and Lancing improvement

Post by Johnathan404 »

I said the same about the idea of a Chichester Northern Bypass, but even at my most optimistic I cannot foresee a future where the A27 will be pleasant to drive.

As such, I support the idea of localised improvements which will make life better for those who live near it, but see the idea of an expensive improvement at Worthing as throwing money on a fire.

I would love a non-stop dual carriageway from Portsmouth to Brighton, but unless you're selling me that, I don't want to fall for it.
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Re: A27 Worthing and Lancing improvement

Post by Truvelo »

But surely the cost benefit of a completely freeflowing south coast trunk road would improve if it took traffic off the M25?
How would you like your grade separations, Sir?
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c2R
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Re: A27 Worthing and Lancing improvement

Post by c2R »

Truvelo wrote:But surely the cost benefit of a completely freeflowing south coast trunk road would improve if it took traffic off the M25?
Looking at the report, I'm not sure creating a package of improvements for the A35/A31/A27/A259 to create a route providing strategic diversion of traffic from the M25 to a new south coast motorway was assessed...
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Re: A27 Worthing and Lancing improvement

Post by Lil »

I think the core problem is that a significant proportion of the A27's traffic is local traffic, and this clashes with the long distance traffic. If for example you decided to only have junctions at Offington Corner for the A24 north/A2031 and Grove Lodge for the A24 south to the town centre of Worthing, that may help flows on the A27 no doubt about it. But it would displace a significant amount of local traffic trying to use local facilities (for local people :wink:) and the other roads around Worthing are pretty congested too already. It's just a basic fact - there are a lot of people living in a very small urbanised area who have a lot of cars.

I'm gonna say that whatever they do, it will be a congested bodge. Instead of a S2 chockablock with traffic, it will be a D2 chockablock with traffic.

The only way I can see solving the traffic problem is a proper bypass that takes long distance traffic away from the route that serves the Worthing area, and that then leaves what would be the former A27 as a local distributor.
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Re: A27 Worthing and Lancing improvement

Post by SteveA30 »

What Worthing needs is a 'Brighton', one of the best designed D2 bypasses in Britain. It doesn't need a 'Shrewsbury', one of the worst designed D2 bypasses.

These could be official Sabre words from now on.

A Brighton, good. A Shrewsbury, bad.
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Re: A27 Worthing and Lancing improvement

Post by c2R »

SteveA30 wrote:What Worthing needs is a 'Brighton', one of the best designed D2 bypasses in Britain. It doesn't need a 'Shrewsbury', one of the worst designed D2 bypasses.

These could be official Sabre words from now on.

A Brighton, good. A Shrewsbury, bad.
Unfortunately the Brighton bypass suffers from an abjectly terrible junction with the A23, which is the direction a lot of traffic is heading...
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jackal
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Re: A27 Worthing and Lancing improvement

Post by jackal »

Johnathan404 wrote:I said the same about the idea of a Chichester Northern Bypass, but even at my most optimistic I cannot foresee a future where the A27 will be pleasant to drive.

As such, I support the idea of localised improvements which will make life better for those who live near it, but see the idea of an expensive improvement at Worthing as throwing money on a fire.

I would love a non-stop dual carriageway from Portsmouth to Brighton, but unless you're selling me that, I don't want to fall for it.
It would be very unusual for a D2 and largely grade-separated route like this to not have its S2 bottlenecks (Arundel and Worthing) sorted out eventually. The only issue is whether the 'real' upgrade comes in 2020 or 2050. It's the localised improvements that would amount to 'throwing money on a fire', since they would inevitably be rendered redundant in the coming decades. Better to make the necessary upgrade, realizing the full economic benefits at the earliest opportunity, rather than waste money on false economies.
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Re: A27 Worthing and Lancing improvement

Post by Chris5156 »

jackal wrote:It would be very unusual for a D2 and largely grade-separated route like this to not have its S2 bottlenecks (Arundel and Worthing) sorted out eventually. The only issue is whether the 'real' upgrade comes in 2020 or 2050. It's the localised improvements that would amount to 'throwing money on a fire', since they would inevitably be rendered redundant in the coming decades. Better to make the necessary upgrade, realizing the full economic benefits at the earliest opportunity, rather than waste money on false economies.
I agree, but the problem with the A27 is that upgrades get called off every time there's a slight breeze because there is always the counter-argument that says even if you improve this bit, the rest will still be terrible. Worthing is one of the most significant problems on the route, and one of the main things fuelling that counter-argument, and fixing it properly will cost upwards of £1bn on a road where the rest will still be terrible. Not worth it.

So I wonder if it's better to accept a package of localised improvements that make Worthing bearable, and remove it from the list of major problems, so that other improvements to full expressway standard can happen without Worthing rendering them useless. Then, when the route is largely expressway and Worthing is still an at-grade route through an urban area, your £1bn tunnel or wide sweep northern bypass can be justified.

In other words, in this case it might be better to hope for progressive steps towards full expressway rather than hoping each section can jump straight to that standard. I don't think it can because attempts to do just that have so frequently been killed off on the A27.
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Re: A27 Worthing and Lancing improvement

Post by Chris_533976 »

c2R wrote:
SteveA30 wrote:What Worthing needs is a 'Brighton', one of the best designed D2 bypasses in Britain. It doesn't need a 'Shrewsbury', one of the worst designed D2 bypasses.

These could be official Sabre words from now on.

A Brighton, good. A Shrewsbury, bad.
Unfortunately the Brighton bypass suffers from an abjectly terrible junction with the A23, which is the direction a lot of traffic is heading...
Whenever I'm over from Ireland and in Brighton I always think of that. Its an absolute disgrace that junction.
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Re: A27 Worthing and Lancing improvement

Post by jackal »

C2R wrote:Unfortunately the Brighton bypass suffers from an abjectly terrible junction with the A23, which is the direction a lot of traffic is heading...
It's not that bad - freeflow for A23N<->A27W (including the unusual two lane filter) is more than most junctions of this sort can manage. Obviously all the A27<->A23N movements should really be freeflowed, but many similar junctions are two bridge roundabout interchanges with no freeflow at all.
Chris5156 wrote:
jackal wrote:It would be very unusual for a D2 and largely grade-separated route like this to not have its S2 bottlenecks (Arundel and Worthing) sorted out eventually. The only issue is whether the 'real' upgrade comes in 2020 or 2050. It's the localised improvements that would amount to 'throwing money on a fire', since they would inevitably be rendered redundant in the coming decades. Better to make the necessary upgrade, realizing the full economic benefits at the earliest opportunity, rather than waste money on false economies.
I agree, but the problem with the A27 is that upgrades get called off every time there's a slight breeze because there is always the counter-argument that says even if you improve this bit, the rest will still be terrible. Worthing is one of the most significant problems on the route, and one of the main things fuelling that counter-argument, and fixing it properly will cost upwards of £1bn on a road where the rest will still be terrible. Not worth it.

So I wonder if it's better to accept a package of localised improvements that make Worthing bearable, and remove it from the list of major problems, so that other improvements to full expressway standard can happen without Worthing rendering them useless. Then, when the route is largely expressway and Worthing is still an at-grade route through an urban area, your £1bn tunnel or wide sweep northern bypass can be justified.

In other words, in this case it might be better to hope for progressive steps towards full expressway rather than hoping each section can jump straight to that standard. I don't think it can because attempts to do just that have so frequently been killed off on the A27.
The 'full dualling' option isn't really that expensive (around £100m not £1bn). For that price it presumably is an online upgrade without GSJs, but with side roads closed off or LILOed. It's true that even that will be controversial as there are properties on both sides of the road, but for there to be 'progressive steps towards full expressway' I think there does need to be an increase in carriageway width. The 'localised improvements' are probably just more elaborate signalized junctions etc, i.e. moving the deckchairs on the Titanic.
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Re: A27 Worthing and Lancing improvement

Post by Boring82 »

I have relatives in the Arundel area, they were talking about the proposals around Arundel and the local action group that are lobbying to stop the A27 becoming an Expressway (among over things) and insisting that it should be primarily for the use of locals rather than "taking traffic off the M25" (their words not mine). My Aunt and Uncle are split over it, my Uncle is for dualling of the A27 right the way through and making it into an HQDC, my Aunt on the other hand thinks it should be kept as a local road, rather than an expressway...
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Re: A27 Worthing and Lancing improvement

Post by sotonsteve »

Define locals though.

If I wanted to go from Southampton to Brighton, I assume I would not be defined as a local. Some green maniac would probably tell me to catch the train instead. It's worth noting at this point that the railway between Southampton and Brighton is pretty poor for the population centres it serves, as train services are slow and infrequent and east of Portsmouth the line is riddled with level crossings. The bus service along the south coast is also something of a day trip or a service only good for retired people who have all the time in the world. So what should I do, just not make the journey at all?

Sometimes the M25 has been so bad I have used the A27 as an alternative. But for most, at present, the A27 isn't an alternative to the M25, yet still it can be pretty torturous with poor journey time reliability.

Back to the point of locals, what is a local? Somebody who just lives in Arundel? Somebody who lives between Chichester and Worthing? People who just live on the route of the A27, or people who live on the route of the A259 as well? Like the rest of southern England, West Sussex is no exception to housing development. What improved transport links are going to cater for the population growth? Thankfully we are seeing things like the Bognor Relief Road and A259 dualling near Littlehampton, which will go a way to alleviate built up pressure, but it's not enough.
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Re: A27 Worthing and Lancing improvement

Post by Ritchie333 »

Try visiting Brighton from Ashford. You think the A27 at the Southampton end is bad? Try the A259 through Hastings or the hairpin at Winchelsea. Still, it does mean at least the Marshlink line hasn't shut, and you do at least get a nice view when you're on it. And even if there was D6M from Southampton to Brighton, you'll still need somewhere to park. Not too easy in a Green constituency.
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Re: A27 Worthing and Lancing improvement

Post by Boring82 »

sotonsteve wrote:Define locals though.

If I wanted to go from Southampton to Brighton, I assume I would not be defined as a local. Some green maniac would probably tell me to catch the train instead. It's worth noting at this point that the railway between Southampton and Brighton is pretty poor for the population centres it serves, as train services are slow and infrequent and east of Portsmouth the line is riddled with level crossings. The bus service along the south coast is also something of a day trip or a service only good for retired people who have all the time in the world. So what should I do, just not make the journey at all?

Sometimes the M25 has been so bad I have used the A27 as an alternative. But for most, at present, the A27 isn't an alternative to the M25, yet still it can be pretty torturous with poor journey time reliability.

Back to the point of locals, what is a local? Somebody who just lives in Arundel? Somebody who lives between Chichester and Worthing? People who just live on the route of the A27, or people who live on the route of the A259 as well? Like the rest of southern England, West Sussex is no exception to housing development. What improved transport links are going to cater for the population growth? Thankfully we are seeing things like the Bognor Relief Road and A259 dualling near Littlehampton, which will go a way to alleviate built up pressure, but it's not enough.
This is the website of the group I was referring to:

Arundel Bypass Neighbourhood Committee

They seem to be stating the following:
IT SHOULD continue to serve mainly local traffic
IT SHOULD NOT become an A27(M) South Coast Motorway
It therefore does NOT require fully dualled 70(80)mph 'expressway' standards throughout, with major new offline bypasses through valuable countryside, and closed-off side roads making local off-A27 congestion worse.
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Re: A27 Worthing and Lancing improvement

Post by sotonsteve »

But for the A27 to be a road to mainly serve local traffic is contradictory. It is a trunk road. It is the main road between two cities (Portsmouth and Brighton). Traffic flows of local versus through traffic aside, it remains a strategic route however you try to dress it up.

As much as the A27 is infuriating for people like me, who maybe drive it once every three months, it's the locals who use it daily who suffer the most. As long distance through traffic I only suffer occasionally. So the joke is on the locals really. These pressure groups are most at odds with their neighbours who happen to not share their opinions. And like most pressure groups, I suspect they are full of octogenarians and eco-warriors rather than your average person representative of the majority view.
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Re: A27 Worthing and Lancing improvement

Post by Phil »

sotonsteve wrote: Sometimes the M25 has been so bad I have used the A27 as an alternative. But for most, at present, the A27 isn't an alternative to the M25, yet still it can be pretty torturous with poor journey time reliability.
Exactly.

Policy should be vehicles wishing to make east - west journeys south of Crawley / Horsham / Haslemere / Winchester (or east of in the case of Ashford) should be directed along the A27 / A259 corridor leaving the M25 for taffic that NEEDS to orbit London as part of its journey (such as Dover - Bristol, Basingstoke - Stansted or Crawley - Milton Keynes). Instead EVERYTHING is pointed towards the M25, which struggles to cope.

At least those to the north of London have the A14 while the A34 & A43 provides some releif to those living to the west of London. Is it really too much to ask for those to the south of London to have a similar facility?
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