Speed Limits under 30MPH

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Chris Bertram
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Re: Speed Limits under 30MPH

Post by Chris Bertram »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 09:48Interestingly, the best selling SUV cross - the Qashqai - has a smaller boot space than a Vauxhall Insignia. So people aren't buying them because they're spacious!
The Qashqai - I have the Renault equivalent, the Kadjar - isn't really a SUV, it's a crossover. For the Kadjar, there is a 4WD option, but only on one engine size, needless to say the most expensive. It doesn't afford a particularly high ride, and to call it a SUV is either an exaggeration or pretention on the part of the owner. Let's put it this way, put it next to a Discovery and you'd not consider it to be in the same class. Let's put it another way - I didn't buy it under any illusion that it would ease speed hump misery.
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Re: Speed Limits under 30MPH

Post by FosseWay »

Chris Bertram wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:04
FosseWay wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 09:57Btw - what is an LTN?
A "low traffic neighbourhood". AKA an area where roads are blocked at some point to motor vehicles, allegedly to stop "rat-running". The benefits and disadvantages are being outlined above.
Thanks - I'd figured out from the descriptions what the general aims were, but couldn't turn it into an obvious phrase.
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KeithW
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Re: Speed Limits under 30MPH

Post by KeithW »

FosseWay wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 09:57
Bryn666 wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 09:08 Why people really buy SUVs is because they think bigger is better to compensate for the fact they are incompetent drivers.
Or because they think everyone else is incompetent - it amounts to the same thing. It's not that surprising people make those choices when everyone involved in the transport industry, from councils and highways authorities to car manufacturers, emphasise the desirability of measures to prevent accidents being more serious than they otherwise would be over measures to prevent accidents, period. It's much the same as fire regulations in workplaces and hotels - the emphasis always seems to be on protecting people in the event of a fire rather than preventing the fire in the first place.
I dont drive an SUV but I do drive a taller vehicle in the form of a Ford C-Max rather than the Focus. The reasons for that are simple.

1) Most importantly as an arthritic 68 year old geezer it is easy to get in and out of. Getting in and out of a Focus is literally a pain in the neck. In the C-Max I just seat in the seat and swivel my legs in. I took an older drivers assessment course last year and will take another when I hit 70.

2) I have to act as the family taxi from time to time which means I need a luggage space large enough for a wheel chair and suitcases with a large passenger seat that is also easy to get in and out of.

3) We dont have many speed humps but the weather in the last two years has been bad enough to ensure a record crop of potholes. You dont need 4WD for any of these but long travel suspension, large wheels and a decent ground clearance all help.

4) I am well overdue for my biannual trip to the recycling centre, not to put too fine a point on it I have a garage full of junk.

The side streets on this estate do not have speed humps but do have a 20 mph limit which receives a regular visit by the Talivan which unfortunately does a roaring trade. We had a Mondeo clocked at 46 mph on a residential street earlier this year. Ironically it was a mother rushing her kids to school.

As for poor drivers as far as I can see most incompetent drivers are under 20 and drive Corsas, Fiestas , Polos etc. when I was that age we drove Hillman Imps , minis and ancient A40's. Some things dont change.
Last edited by KeithW on Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:25, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Speed Limits under 30MPH

Post by Bryn666 »

c2R wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:06 You're right - that's well planned to have two TLAs relating to roads that mean different things!
Campaigners have preferred the term "Active Neighbourhoods" for that reason - e.g. ones that aren't reliant on sitting in a car, but councils are notoriously terrible at branding things.
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Stevie D
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Re: Speed Limits under 30MPH

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c2R wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 09:09I'll raise my hand as I've been guilty of it myself - driving to the village shop to get a loaf of bread and some milk when I could walk there quite easily. Now I'm more aware of the environmental damage caused by such short journeys, I do so far less frequently.... but when it's a rainy, dark, evening and the shop shuts in five minutes...
One thing that has changed in the last few months is that I do now usually drive to the shops, whereas ordinarily I would pretty much always walk unless it was chucking it down. But that's the main supermarket, because I'm trying to go as infrequently as I can under the current circumstances, and carrying everything I need for 8–10 days on a half mile walk is a bit of a strain. Sometimes I do walk, if I've still got plenty of frozen food left and it's mostly just fresh stuff I need then that's more manageable. I don't like driving short distances like that, and normally I wouldn't think twice about walking down to Sainsburys a couple of times a week, but that doesn't seem so sensible as things are right now.
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Re: Speed Limits under 30MPH

Post by c2R »

Stevie D wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 12:58
c2R wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 09:09I'll raise my hand as I've been guilty of it myself - driving to the village shop to get a loaf of bread and some milk when I could walk there quite easily. Now I'm more aware of the environmental damage caused by such short journeys, I do so far less frequently.... but when it's a rainy, dark, evening and the shop shuts in five minutes...
One thing that has changed in the last few months is that I do now usually drive to the shops, whereas ordinarily I would pretty much always walk unless it was chucking it down. But that's the main supermarket, because I'm trying to go as infrequently as I can under the current circumstances, and carrying everything I need for 8–10 days on a half mile walk is a bit of a strain. Sometimes I do walk, if I've still got plenty of frozen food left and it's mostly just fresh stuff I need then that's more manageable. I don't like driving short distances like that, and normally I wouldn't think twice about walking down to Sainsburys a couple of times a week, but that doesn't seem so sensible as things are right now.
Yes, I've got friends whose shopping pattern has changed as you describe. Mine's gone the other way - as I'm not out on the road all day every day anymore, we've been doing home delivery with a slot each week - we only started trying it just before Christmas, where we were playing one supermarket off another by picking up delivery offers when in store or buying fuel, but as soon as I stopped travelling we switched fully. If this situation lasted forever, I would actually consider whether as a family we do need two vehicles at all.
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Re: Westminster 20 limit

Post by Graham »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:28 "Slower is safer" is debatable? Well, if physics themselves and the transfer of kinetic energy into a human body are debatable, then yes. It's an inconvenient truth for the ABD that a two tonne mass being driven at any speed is likely to kill or seriously injure someone if it hits them.
Nonetheless, the evidence - as it stands - does not support the contention that the introduction of a 20 limit actually makes a road safer. The Atkins Report (published Nov 2018) is quite explicit on this point. (It is a different matter for a 20 zone, of course).

It seems to me that the real problem is the piecemeal introduction of 20 limits. I am not convinced that built-up areas in one part of the country are really that much different from built-up areas elsewhere. If it is really the case that the majority of the public supports 20 limits in urban areas (as campaigners claim), then they should be introduced across the UK as a whole, rather than leaving it up to local authorities.

You have to wonder why no major political party has incorporated this as policy in the run-up to a general election. I would suggest that this is because our politicians do not believe the claim that the majority of people support 20 limits in urban areas.
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Re: Westminster 20 limit

Post by A9NWIL »

Graham wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 22:37
Bryn666 wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:28 "Slower is safer" is debatable? Well, if physics themselves and the transfer of kinetic energy into a human body are debatable, then yes. It's an inconvenient truth for the ABD that a two tonne mass being driven at any speed is likely to kill or seriously injure someone if it hits them.
Nonetheless, the evidence - as it stands - does not support the contention that the introduction of a 20 limit actually makes a road safer. The Atkins Report (published Nov 2018) is quite explicit on this point. (It is a different matter for a 20 zone, of course).

It seems to me that the real problem is the piecemeal introduction of 20 limits. I am not convinced that built-up areas in one part of the country are really that much different from built-up areas elsewhere. If it is really the case that the majority of the public supports 20 limits in urban areas (as campaigners claim), then they should be introduced across the UK as a whole, rather than leaving it up to local authorities.

You have to wonder why no major political party has incorporated this as policy in the run-up to a general election. I would suggest that this is because our politicians do not believe the claim that the majority of people support 20 limits in urban areas.
I wonder what would happen if there was a referendum on such a thing? unlikely or near impossible in this country it hardly ever happens and normally leads to too many unanswered questions and problems, but If the public were to have their say I wounder what they would say?
If they said no would councils remove all the 20mph zones?
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Re: Westminster 20 limit

Post by KeithW »

lotrjw wrote: Sat Oct 10, 2020 19:43 I wonder what would happen if there was a referendum on such a thing? unlikely or near impossible in this country it hardly ever happens and normally leads to too many unanswered questions and problems, but If the public were to have their say I wounder what they would say?
If they said no would councils remove all the 20mph zones?
No - they would simply say that a national referendum was not binding on a local authority. A policy that makes sense in the centre of a large town will be viewed very differently by someone living in a small town in the Scottish Borders. This is why such decisions are devolved to local councils.

The policy in my area is that 20 mph limits are normally only applied to residential streets.

This is a 20 mph zone
A residential area with a narrow pavement, poor sight lines and used as a rat run.

Close by is a 30 mph zone also on a residential street. A better footpath and less through traffic
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.52288 ... 312!8i6656

Close by is the major urban road which is 40 mph but the side roads into the estate are 20mph
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.52065 ... 384!8i8192
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Re: Westminster 20 limit

Post by A9NWIL »

KeithW wrote: Sat Oct 10, 2020 20:04
lotrjw wrote: Sat Oct 10, 2020 19:43 I wonder what would happen if there was a referendum on such a thing? unlikely or near impossible in this country it hardly ever happens and normally leads to too many unanswered questions and problems, but If the public were to have their say I wounder what they would say?
If they said no would councils remove all the 20mph zones?
No - they would simply say that a national referendum was not binding on a local authority. A policy that makes sense in the centre of a large town will be viewed very differently by someone living in a small town in the Scottish Borders. This is why such decisions are devolved to local councils.

The policy in my area is that 20 mph limits are normally only applied to residential streets.

This is a 20 mph zone
A residential area with a narrow pavement, poor sight lines and used as a rat run.

Close by is a 30 mph zone also on a residential street. A better footpath and less through traffic
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.52288 ... 312!8i6656

Close by is the major urban road which is 40 mph but the side roads into the estate are 20mph
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.52065 ... 384!8i8192
Im sure years ago the first google link thats a 30mph would have been a 40mph.

True a referendum may or may not be binding, thats the issue with them in the UK, parliament have to make them so.
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Bryn666
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Re: Speed Limits under 30MPH

Post by Bryn666 »

I thought the last decade had successfully established referendums don't achieve anything other than completely fracturing the country.

In any case speed limit setting was decentralised in 1993 because local authorities were fed up of not being able to manage their own roads and being told by someone 200 miles away their road had to be a different speed limit to what local residents wanted.

I find it interesting how everyone complains about central government diktats but then complains that central government aren't controlling local authorities whenever they flex their powers.

But that's driver entitlement syndrome for you.
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Re: Speed Limits under 30MPH

Post by A9NWIL »

Bryn666 wrote: Sat Oct 10, 2020 21:22 I thought the last decade had successfully established referendums don't achieve anything other than completely fracturing the country.

In any case speed limit setting was decentralised in 1993 because local authorities were fed up of not being able to manage their own roads and being told by someone 200 miles away their road had to be a different speed limit to what local residents wanted.

I find it interesting how everyone complains about central government diktats but then complains that central government aren't controlling local authorities whenever they flex their powers.

But that's driver entitlement syndrome for you.
Well its ironic that the most stable form of government is a dictatorship, if there was ever such a thing as a dictator who would work for others not themselves then the world might actually be very stable!
As for speed limits if drivers drove better we likely wouldnt need any limits, but thats another matter. 20mph works on quiet residential streets as they are quiet anyway, but the argument can then be why bother spending the money if people dont drive fast anyway? Through routes are more important though but having them as 20mph can be tedious getting anywhere. Perhaps if we used metric it could be 40km/h that would be a nice compromise between the 20mph and the 30mph, so much so we could even make the default with street lamps 40km/h with 50km/h signed specifically? 30km/h could then be for special cases only.
roads with no properties or footpaths could be 50km/h or 70km/h all depending on situation. The nice one is motorways being 120km/h as thats what Im sure people on here have said is their design speed anyway.
Anyway 20mph just seems strange and with it not being properly enforced is a farce, personally I think less about the speed im doing and more about the road in those situations and I may well be doing somewhere between 20mph and 30mph because of that. Speeding up when its clear, including the footpaths that is, and slowing if there is a hazard including if there are people looking like they may cross or run into the road. It just seems that because of a few stupid fools people want slower roads, instead of drivers driving better. Its a shame that speed cameras cant pick up on bad driving instead of just speed in some ways.
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Re: Speed Limits under 30MPH

Post by Micro The Maniac »

Bryn666 wrote: Sat Oct 10, 2020 21:22 In any case speed limit setting was decentralised in 1993 because local authorities were fed up of not being able to manage their own roads and being told by someone 200 miles away their road had to be a different speed limit to what local residents wanted.
Really? Since when have local authorities followed the wishes of the local residents?
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Re: Speed Limits under 30MPH

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Micro The Maniac wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:08 Really? Since when have local authorities followed the wishes of the local residents?
Well if the local councillors dont they can get voted out as they were here in the last local elections when the ruling part lost control of the council. They went from having 33 seats to 20. in fact all the national parties lost voters. The controlling group is now made up of independents. The election for Mayor was also won by an independent.
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Re: Speed Limits under 30MPH

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Micro The Maniac wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:08
Bryn666 wrote: Sat Oct 10, 2020 21:22 In any case speed limit setting was decentralised in 1993 because local authorities were fed up of not being able to manage their own roads and being told by someone 200 miles away their road had to be a different speed limit to what local residents wanted.
Really? Since when have local authorities followed the wishes of the local residents?
Ah yes, more motorist entitlement - because other people are listened to, e.g. local taxpayers and not rat runners, local councils don't listen to anyone.

Change the bloody record.
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Re: Speed Limits under 30MPH

Post by Micro The Maniac »

Bryn666 wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:30 Ah yes, more motorist entitlement - because other people are listened to, e.g. local taxpayers and not rat runners, local councils don't listen to anyone.

Change the bloody record.
With the greatest of respect Bryn, it is you that is getting rather monotonous.

Given that this is the British and Irish Roads forum, it is unsurprising that motorist views are predominant.

And nothing in my repost says anything about motorist entitlement. But you seem to think all stick is a way of changing behaviour - even where no alternatives exist. We don't all live in a big city with 24/7 public transport options.
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Re: Speed Limits under 30MPH

Post by Bryn666 »

Yes, roads enthusiasm is not driving enthusiasm and if you can't accept that the roads are for more than just motorists perhaps you are on the wrong society.

Have you read the mission statement lately? Do you actually know why this site was set up?

Clue: it wasn't to moan about how unfair speed limits are.
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Re: Speed Limits under 30MPH

Post by Micro The Maniac »

KeithW wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:30 Well if the local councillors dont they can get voted out as they were here in the last local elections when the ruling part lost control of the council. They went from having 33 seats to 20. in fact all the national parties lost voters. The controlling group is now made up of independents. The election for Mayor was also won by an independent.
Excellent. And may this trend continue. In too many places, especially at local level, a party-slate ticket is a guarantee of a seat.

Personally, I'd prefer party-politics to be taken out of the local equation.
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Re: Speed Limits under 30MPH

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Bryn666 wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:43 perhaps you are on the wrong society.
I've come to that conclusion already.
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Re: Speed Limits under 30MPH

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Micro The Maniac wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:46 Personally, I'd prefer party-politics to be taken out of the local equation.
So would I, but having entirely independent councillors doesn't change the fact they still have to follow what the voters see as a priority.
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