Chichester bypass upgrade

[Berk]

If ever there was a massive fire, explosion or aircraft crash close to Chichester, I would be afraid the incident would have to be allowed to burn itself out.

It would be too difficult even for police to use their powers to close and clear the road. The volumes of traffic are far too high for normal traffic management to be any use.

Sadly, that’s probably what we’re waiting for.

[Herned]

I should think the cost of land around Chichester is much higher than it is near Taunton or in rural Cambridgeshire.

The most expensive agricultural land in the country goes for around £50k/hectare. A dual carriageway needs 4-5 of those per km. The difference between completely free land and the most expensive is £250k per km, totally insignificant when talking of roads costing £50-100m/km

[Euan]

Something seriously needs to be done about the A27 - it took me over three hours yesterday evening to cover the 80 odd miles from Eastbourne to Southampton. Looking at Google this morning it actually suggests taking the M23 to the M25 and then coming back down the M3 is a quicker route by 20 minutes, despite being over 60% longer and adding to congestion around London...

If that is the case then the journey from Brighton to Southampton must be even more remarkable - around 75% longer in distance via the M25 but still quicker than travelling via the A27. Certainly very few people would have thought that was the case just simply from looking at a map.

[c2R]

Some of the delay was caused by problems at Drusillas Roundabout between Eastbourne and Lewes, but yes, most of the delay was between Brighton and Portsmouth, at all the usual and obvious places...

[Chris5156]

If ever there was a massive fire, explosion or aircraft crash close to Chichester, I would be afraid the incident would have to be allowed to burn itself out.

Like the aircraft crash that happened literally on the A27 at Shoreham-by-Sea, just a few years ago, and which the emergency services reached just fine, even though a major air show was taking place nearby?

The A27 at Shoreham typically carries 60k vehicles per day while the A27 at Chichester carries 50k, so it is noticeably busier even without the air show happening.

It would be too difficult even for police to use their powers to close and clear the road. The volumes of traffic are far too high for normal traffic management to be any use.

There are far busier and more congested roads than the A27 at Chichester. There’s nothing remotely so unusual about it.

[c2R]

There was actually an ambulance managed to push its way through the traffic on the Chichester bypass while we were all sitting going nowhere on it - the carriageway and hardstrips are sufficiently wide to be able to make space in the centre.

[mnb20]

Something seriously needs to be done about the A27 - it took me over three hours yesterday evening to cover the 80 odd miles from Eastbourne to Southampton. Looking at Google this morning it actually suggests taking the M23 to the M25 and then coming back down the M3 is a quicker route by 20 minutes, despite being over 60% longer and adding to congestion around London...

If that is the case then the journey from Brighton to Southampton must be even more remarkable - around 75% longer in distance via the M25 but still quicker than travelling via the A27. Certainly very few people would have thought that was the case just simply from looking at a map.

It isn't normally. The A27 is a much quicker route most of the time, as you would expect. At peak times, it's pretty horrendous but you can still normally get from Brighton to Southampton in two hours, which is how long the M25 route would take when clear - unlikely at peak times. The M25 route being quicker isn't exactly unusual but it means something has gone wrong, it's not just normal daily congestion.

[Herned]

.. but you can still normally get from Brighton to Southampton in two hours

2 hours to go 60 miles between two major cities is completely unacceptable

[KeithW]

.. but you can still normally get from Brighton to Southampton in two hours

2 hours to go 60 miles between two major cities is completely unacceptable

Its about the norm for anywhere along the south coast between Dover and Portsmouth, it took me that long to do Folkestone to Pevensey which is around 60 miles.
Travelling from Folkestone to Brighton its quicker to use the 100 mile route via the M20/M25/A23 than use the more direct 75 mile route M20/A265, the slowest route by a good margin is following the coastal A259/A27 which takes a good 2.5 hours to do 75 miles. In the 1980's I made the mistake of using the coastal route from Lydd to Bournemouth in summer. It took me about 5 hours as I recall. I could have got to Skegness in a little over 4 hours !

The roads for prosperity white paper envisage major improvements including bypasses of Rye, Hastings, Worthing and Arundel but these were all dropped in 1996.

[Berk]

.. but you can still normally get from Brighton to Southampton in two hours

2 hours to go 60 miles between two major cities is completely unacceptable

Well until someone buys up half of Worthing, LILO a few junctions and closes the central reserve in Chichester, and bulldozes through the Arundel extension, I can’t see much progress ahead.

Well, maybe the Arundel extension, that’s the most likely. Most of the A27 isn’t bad, it’s just the pinch throttle points that are.

[Herned]

Most of the A27 isn’t bad, it’s just the pinch throttle points that are.

Not sure I would agree with that... Of the 70 miles between Pevensey and Cosham which is the important bit, only about 30 miles are of decent standard, with, as I'm sure you are aware, a mix of ok and terrible bits in between

[Berk]

But what do we call a decent standard?? For me, free-flow conditions are all that matter.

East of Brighton, the drop in standard is noticeable. Much more like a rural road. At least the road west of Brighton has more of a trunk feel to it.

[Euan]

Something seriously needs to be done about the A27 - it took me over three hours yesterday evening to cover the 80 odd miles from Eastbourne to Southampton. Looking at Google this morning it actually suggests taking the M23 to the M25 and then coming back down the M3 is a quicker route by 20 minutes, despite being over 60% longer and adding to congestion around London...

If that is the case then the journey from Brighton to Southampton must be even more remarkable - around 75% longer in distance via the M25 but still quicker than travelling via the A27. Certainly very few people would have thought that was the case just simply from looking at a map.

It isn't normally. The A27 is a much quicker route most of the time, as you would expect. At peak times, it's pretty horrendous but you can still normally get from Brighton to Southampton in two hours, which is how long the M25 route would take when clear - unlikely at peak times. The M25 route being quicker isn't exactly unusual but it means something has gone wrong, it's not just normal daily congestion.

Yes, I think it just depends on the levels of traffic at the time of the journey. What definitely seems to be the case is that at the M25 route would be quicker at the best of times than the A27 route would be at the worst of times. I would have been very surprised if broadly speaking the M25 was any quicker than the A27.

[Euan]

.. but you can still normally get from Brighton to Southampton in two hours

2 hours to go 60 miles between two major cities is completely unacceptable

You would be averaging a speed of 30mph which, given the fact that much of the A27 along the route is dualled and that the M27 covers part of the route, sounds very poor indeed. I reckon that at peak times many of the at-grade roundabouts on the A27 must cause considerable delays to journeys.

[Herned]

But what do we call a decent standard?? For me, free-flow conditions are all that matter.

East of Brighton, the drop in standard is noticeable. Much more like a rural road. At least the road west of Brighton has more of a trunk feel to it.

As I'm sure most this forum would agree, the bit through Worthing is an abomination that has no place on a trunk road in a modern economy. The whole central section from Fishbourne to Lancing needs a lot of work, it must cost an absolute fortune in lost time and opportunities

[KeithW]

You would be averaging a speed of 30mph which, given the fact that much of the A27 along the route is dualled and that the M27 covers part of the route, sounds very poor indeed. I reckon that at peak times many of the at-grade roundabouts on the A27 must cause considerable delays to journeys.

There are several pinch points that mean 2 hours is an expected duration even at quieter times.

First of all is the stretch through Worthing which at its best is a suburban S2 road and at worst a series of retail outlets with a set of lights every 100 metres and can easily take 20 minutes. After a brief period of good progress you hit the lane drop at the Crossbush Roundabout and join the end of the crawl through Arundel.

Finally you hit the Chichester bypass. This in my opinion is a misnomer. In reality it is the southern half of a ring road, a bypass would have at most 3 junctions east west and south and they would be grade separated. As with most ring roads you have multiple roundabouts and a flat signalised junction at the eastern end. At each uncontrolled development has occurred. Housing developments in Chichester and its attractiveness have lead to considerable commuter traffic between Southampton, Havant and Chichester along the A27. The result is that the traffic flow on the A27 rises from 30k at Arundel to 50k from Chichester to Southampton. Adding extra lanes and GSJ's to the existing 'bypass' will only attract more. This lack of differentiation between local and strategic roads is a classic example of why the USA introduced the Interstate System and the UK the Motorway Network.

If the will (and money) were there to really fix it what would be needed is a new build M27 or A27 Expressway from a point east of Havant around the north of Chichester to the Shoreham bypass with a limited number of grade separated junctions such as Chichester (A286), Arundel (A284) and Worthing (A24). This CAN be done and was achieved in the North East between Thirsk and Jarrow with the A19 which for much of its route is new build D2 with GSJ's . The section that was upgraded online, mainly between Wolviston and Peterlee is of lower quality.

Something similar has happened between Cambridge and the M1 with the A428/A421 which started out as a collection of S2 A and B grade local roads and which have almost completed the transition to new build HQDC, the last section will be the A428 between Caxton Gibbet and the new A1 junction that will replace the Black Cat. This will be the first stage of the Oxford Cambridge Expressway,

This will of course never happen on the south coast between the Nimbys, the CPRE and land prices but I can dream. In the meantime the A27 will remain little more than a number of local roads of varying quality that happen to run along the south coast.

[mnb20]

(talking about going Southampton to Brighton)

There are several pinch points that mean 2 hours is an expected duration even at quieter times.

No, it really isn't. Outside of peak times I would expect around an hour from the edge of Southampton to the edge of Brighton (this is what Google maps says, and I would agree with that). City centre to city centre is obviously quite a lot slower but still well under two hours (and those delays are not relevant to discussion of the A27).

Even in peak times, the trunk road part of the journey is not normally as bad as two hours in my experience.

I agree with you about where the bottlenecks are, of course. And Worthing in particular is horrendous, I agree, but they don't add a whole hour on to an off-peak journey, and rarely even on to a peak one.

[Berk]

I beg to differ. I remember setting off from Brighton one afternoon to meet a friend in Portsmouth.

The journey did take two hours, and just the usual delays, nothing exceptional (for the A27).

Chichester was particularly bad though. I’m also sure cheeky people like myself would ‘pretend’ to take the A284 exit at Arundel, and cut back at the last minute...

[KeithW]

No, it really isn't. Outside of peak times I would expect around an hour from the edge of Southampton to the edge of Brighton (this is what Google maps says, and I would agree with that). City centre to city centre is obviously quite a lot slower but still well under two hours (and those delays are not relevant to discussion of the A27).

Even in peak times, the trunk road part of the journey is not normally as bad as two hours in my experience.

I agree with you about where the bottlenecks are, of course. And Worthing in particular is horrendous, I agree, but they don't add a whole hour on to an off-peak journey, and rarely even on to a peak one.

With respect the question was simply about Brighton to Southampton and I expect that be somewhere in each city rather than the A27/21 junction to M27 J3. I have made the journey from Brighton to Southampton many times and I see no possibility of doing it an hour. even with that definition. The distance is 60 miles and you have the choke points mentioned to contend with. In fact I just got Google maps to check the route and at 6.30 PM it showed 1 hour 20 minutes. It is by definition an unreliable route and its easy to find an hour added to the journey especially in summer.

[jcb336]

Every so often I have the misfortune to drive from my daughter's house near the A35 west of Poole to my stepdaughter's house near Hailsham in East Sussex, or vice versa. The first time I did it I couldn't believe how appalling the road east of Portsmouth really is. The DfT's latest proposals to improve the road make no sense apart from at Arundel. Worthing is a national disgrace. Does the place have an MP? A functioning local authority? Two hours twenty five minutes is the fastest I've managed. It's usually three hours and more. Chichester is the least of it.