Excellent, another significant section of dualling on this route and you basically have dual carriageway all the way from the A1 to Kings Lynn. This should then increase pressure to get the last few remaining single carriageway sections through to Norwich done. East Anglia then has a high quality routes to the South and the Midlands/North which is should have had a long time ago.jackal wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 08:36 Highways England are to carry out a strategic study of dualling the A47 between Peterborough and Wisbech.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.peterb ... 4535%3famp
A47 Corridor improvement programme
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Re: A47 Corridor improvement programme
Last edited by thomas417 on Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:12, edited 1 time in total.
Re: A47 Corridor improvement programme
(The original, non-AMP version of your link before Google modified it: https://www.peterboroughtoday.co.uk/new ... nd-3154535)jackal wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 08:36 Highways England are to carry out a strategic study of dualling the A47 between Peterborough and Wisbech.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.peterb ... 4535%3famp
This is something that would make a lot of sense in traffic terms – the stretch of A47 in question is the only really viable route between the Midlands and Norfolk, so a lot of traffic is funneled that way – but might end up being rather hard to build. Even maintaining a single carriageway A47 between the A141 and A1101 requires continuous effort (it doesn't take long after it's been repaired for it to subside again), the basic issue being that the land between Peterborough and Wisbech tends to be very flat with poor drainage. Trying to fit a dual carriageway through there would be substantially harder. Perhaps Peterborough to Guyhirn would be easier, but it would nonetheless be likely to create a large bottleneck.
If they are taking something like this seriously, it's also likely to have implications for the new A47/A141 roundabout at Guyhirn (which is IIRC under construction at the moment).
Re: A47 Corridor improvement programme
Well, I have my doubts about how serious they really are. The sequencing for RIS2 and the RIS3 pipeline was only undertaken a year ago and this didn't make the cut - are they really going to find a couple of billion from nowhere?
I suspect the study is a sop to keep James Palmer and the A47 Alliance off the government's back after they got basically nothing in the RIS2 document (a nicer A1101 roundabout if they're lucky).
I suspect the study is a sop to keep James Palmer and the A47 Alliance off the government's back after they got basically nothing in the RIS2 document (a nicer A1101 roundabout if they're lucky).
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Re: A47 Corridor improvement programme
Mayor Palmer is hyper-active when it comes to promoting schemes, but nothing much has come to fruition so far. Still, fair dos to him for making the effort and at least getting it on the agenda.
I don't know how it stacks up against all of the competing projects in terms of traffic flows/costs/benefits, but as a semi-local, I certainly feel like it needs doing. Apart from the Thorney bypass, most of the rest of the existing road isn't very pleasant, and doesn't feel that safe when it's busy.
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Re: A47 Corridor improvement programme
The bit from Guyhirn to Wisbech will be welcome but difficultjackal wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 08:36 Highways England are to carry out a strategic study of dualling the A47 between Peterborough and Wisbech.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.peterb ... 4535%3famp
Re: A47 Corridor improvement programme
Its is of course purely coincidental that the election for the office of Mayor of Peterborough and Cambridgeshire takes place on 6th May 2021, the 2017 election was rather close as I recall and while Mayor Palmer has promised many things delivering them has been quite another matter. Try as I might I see no signs of the Cambridge Metro system or dualling of the A10 he championed. I particularly admired the chutzpah displayed in his promise to extend the non existent metro to Alconbury
https://cambridgeshirepeterborough-ca.g ... -the-area/
Dont bother looking for the A10 proposal business case using the link on this page, it has disappeared.
https://www.smartertransport.uk/respond ... proposals/
https://cambridgeshirepeterborough-ca.g ... -the-area/
Dont bother looking for the A10 proposal business case using the link on this page, it has disappeared.
https://www.smartertransport.uk/respond ... proposals/
Re: A47 Corridor improvement programme
Isn't that because it only gets patched and fixed and the underlying issues not solved? A new road on a proper foundation should be doable - the Thorney bypass has seemed flat every time I have driven along it - does Wisbech bypass have issues?ais523 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:28 This is something that would make a lot of sense in traffic terms – the stretch of A47 in question is the only really viable route between the Midlands and Norfolk, so a lot of traffic is funneled that way – but might end up being rather hard to build. Even maintaining a single carriageway A47 between the A141 and A1101 requires continuous effort (it doesn't take long after it's been repaired for it to subside again), the basic issue being that the land between Peterborough and Wisbech tends to be very flat with poor drainage.
Re: A47 Corridor improvement programme
I can't help thinking it may be easier to build a completely new off line dual carriageway between the eastern end of the Thorney by-pass and the southern end of the Wisbech by-pass.
Not sure what the cost difference would be though.
Not sure what the cost difference would be though.
Re: A47 Corridor improvement programme
The biggest issues are normally on the section immediately adjacent to the River Nene (between the A141 junction and the southern of the two B198 junctions). That seems to need repairs to the road foundation every few years. I think the Wisbech bypass itself is fairly stable, though.
Re: A47 Corridor improvement programme
If the A47 North Burlingham bypass mentioned upthread a bit is anything to go by any dualling would probably be done offline. The section alongside the Nene is on an embankment and that's always bad news in the Fens - clearly evident on roads like the A1122 between Outwell and Downham Market as well - so a new road would almost certainly be built to the south of the existing alignment at a lower level
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Re: A47 Corridor improvement programme
That is my take too. I have worked it out at 8.5 miles including a tie in. I wonder how much you could get the cost down too though for just Thorney to the B198? A straight DC with at-grade junctions let's say (ofc not my choice but a pragmatic approach) ought to be achievable for around £250m?
At the King's Lynn end I would like to see the A47 go over the flyover at West Lynn then fork left after 1/2 mile back to the A47 roundabout - helps with extending some DC eastwards on the A17 too.
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Re: A47 Corridor improvement programme
Not sure you'd build a new road at lower level in the Fens - with climate change, the risk of widespread flooding is increased.skiddaw05 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 23:04 If the A47 North Burlingham bypass mentioned upthread a bit is anything to go by any dualling would probably be done offline. The section alongside the Nene is on an embankment and that's always bad news in the Fens - clearly evident on roads like the A1122 between Outwell and Downham Market as well - so a new road would almost certainly be built to the south of the existing alignment at a lower level
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Re: A47 Corridor improvement programme
That’s seems a good idea extending onto A17 for a short bit and missing out trying to dual the initial A47 S2 part which is fronted by a few accesses etc and then the problem of the existing small roundabout. It also gives the space for the A47 to be freeflow rather than the roundabout turn at West Lynn. Although expensive vs just widening.thatapanydude wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 23:22That is my take too. I have worked it out at 8.5 miles including a tie in. I wonder how much you could get the cost down too though for just Thorney to the B198? A straight DC with at-grade junctions let's say (ofc not my choice but a pragmatic approach) ought to be achievable for around £250m?
At the King's Lynn end I would like to see the A47 go over the flyover at West Lynn then fork left after 1/2 mile back to the A47 roundabout - helps with extending some DC eastwards on the A17 too.
The Wisbeach bypass, seems better to leave the existing S2 as is and cut through slighlty furrher south in open land (tricky near Elm). That then allows the existing road to become a distributor for housing infill to justify the work. Or go N of Wisbesch and cut the corner to the Thorney section and cut out Guyhirn. Geology is likely to be challenging and require a raised road.
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Re: A47 Corridor improvement programme
On the other hand, I'm guessing that because the Wisbech bypass isn't that old, that has already addressed the geological problems via modern methods and that give a financial argument in favour of just dualling on line.marconaf wrote: ↑Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:20 The Wisbeach bypass, seems better to leave the existing S2 as is and cut through slighlty furrher south in open land (tricky near Elm). That then allows the existing road to become a distributor for housing infill to justify the work. Or go N of Wisbesch and cut the corner to the Thorney section and cut out Guyhirn. Geology is likely to be challenging and require a raised road.
The other issue is how to accommodate the rail link into Wisbech if that is reopened. It used to cross the current road via a - still visible - level crossing, but they'll have to think of something else for an upgraded/dualled road, whether on or off line.
Which, come to think of it, would be a good reason to take your northern option.
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Re: A47 Corridor improvement programme
The A16 Spalding to Peterborough was built from scratch on a new alignment and done entirely on the flat, it opened just over 10years ago. There are bits of it sinking, ancient dried up river routes that are basically a slow moving silt underground, we get them in town too with some very noticeable depressions in the road.Ruperts Trooper wrote: ↑Sat Mar 06, 2021 08:08Not sure you'd build a new road at lower level in the Fens - with climate change, the risk of widespread flooding is increased.skiddaw05 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 23:04 If the A47 North Burlingham bypass mentioned upthread a bit is anything to go by any dualling would probably be done offline. The section alongside the Nene is on an embankment and that's always bad news in the Fens - clearly evident on roads like the A1122 between Outwell and Downham Market as well - so a new road would almost certainly be built to the south of the existing alignment at a lower level
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Re: A47 Corridor improvement programme
This would be my ideal sort out. Take the A47 north of Wisbech with a nice tie up at the Kings Lynn end too. Surely could be done for £500m?marconaf wrote: ↑Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:20That’s seems a good idea extending onto A17 for a short bit and missing out trying to dual the initial A47 S2 part which is fronted by a few accesses etc and then the problem of the existing small roundabout. It also gives the space for the A47 to be freeflow rather than the roundabout turn at West Lynn. Although expensive vs just widening.thatapanydude wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 23:22That is my take too. I have worked it out at 8.5 miles including a tie in. I wonder how much you could get the cost down too though for just Thorney to the B198? A straight DC with at-grade junctions let's say (ofc not my choice but a pragmatic approach) ought to be achievable for around £250m?
At the King's Lynn end I would like to see the A47 go over the flyover at West Lynn then fork left after 1/2 mile back to the A47 roundabout - helps with extending some DC eastwards on the A17 too.
The Wisbeach bypass, seems better to leave the existing S2 as is and cut through slighlty furrher south in open land (tricky near Elm). That then allows the existing road to become a distributor for housing infill to justify the work. Or go N of Wisbesch and cut the corner to the Thorney section and cut out Guyhirn. Geology is likely to be challenging and require a raised road.
Rapidly becomes a big project!
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Re: A47 Corridor improvement programme
I think any route north of Wisbech would get approval, there is a long standing argument for a northern by-pass to accomodate traffic having to cross the River Nene at Freedom Bridge.
As for the 2 miles of S2 Pullover Road up to the A17, would compulsory purchase of any properties be cheaper than a complete off line new build ?
As for the 2 miles of S2 Pullover Road up to the A17, would compulsory purchase of any properties be cheaper than a complete off line new build ?
Re: A47 Corridor improvement programme
Comparable schemes like the A428 Black Cat and A120 to A12 are estimated around £100m per mile. You have 16 miles on your map, plus another 4 if you wanted to dual between Peterborough and Thorney - hence my suggestion of £2bn upthread.thatapanydude wrote: ↑Sat Mar 06, 2021 15:10
This would be my ideal sort out. Take the A47 north of Wisbech with a nice tie up at the Kings Lynn end too. Surely could be done for £500m?
The future proofing at West Lynn is to 70s standards so there'd be a weaving space of 600m to the GSJ on the other side of the Great Ouse. I'd rather suggest folding the slips to the west.
Re: A47 Corridor improvement programme
£2bn seems a little high for what is perfectly flat terrain and I imagine land costs are lower than they would be in the vicinity of the A428 and A12. Even if it did cost this much it would be a better long term solution than tinkering about with the existing route around Guyhirn.
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Re: A47 Corridor improvement programme
Wisbech has a port with an annual volume of 800,000 tons of freight. How would a northern by-pass deal with this? A high level bridge, at what cost? An opening bridge - should be loads of fun! Close the port down - perhaps no longer needed due to Brexit! Or maybe a tunnel, just like Scotland - Ireland! Seriously, how could this problem be addressed at reasonable cost, if at all?