A47 Corridor improvement programme

The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.

There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).

Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.

Moderator: Site Management Team

Post Reply
thomas417
Member
Posts: 104
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 21:13

Re: A47 Corridor improvement programme

Post by thomas417 »

jackal wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 08:36 Highways England are to carry out a strategic study of dualling the A47 between Peterborough and Wisbech.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.peterb ... 4535%3famp
Excellent, another significant section of dualling on this route and you basically have dual carriageway all the way from the A1 to Kings Lynn. This should then increase pressure to get the last few remaining single carriageway sections through to Norwich done. East Anglia then has a high quality routes to the South and the Midlands/North which is should have had a long time ago.
Last edited by thomas417 on Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:12, edited 1 time in total.
ais523
Member
Posts: 1139
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 19:52
Location: Birmingham

Re: A47 Corridor improvement programme

Post by ais523 »

jackal wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 08:36 Highways England are to carry out a strategic study of dualling the A47 between Peterborough and Wisbech.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.peterb ... 4535%3famp
(The original, non-AMP version of your link before Google modified it: https://www.peterboroughtoday.co.uk/new ... nd-3154535)

This is something that would make a lot of sense in traffic terms – the stretch of A47 in question is the only really viable route between the Midlands and Norfolk, so a lot of traffic is funneled that way – but might end up being rather hard to build. Even maintaining a single carriageway A47 between the A141 and A1101 requires continuous effort (it doesn't take long after it's been repaired for it to subside again), the basic issue being that the land between Peterborough and Wisbech tends to be very flat with poor drainage. Trying to fit a dual carriageway through there would be substantially harder. Perhaps Peterborough to Guyhirn would be easier, but it would nonetheless be likely to create a large bottleneck.

If they are taking something like this seriously, it's also likely to have implications for the new A47/A141 roundabout at Guyhirn (which is IIRC under construction at the moment).
User avatar
jackal
Member
Posts: 7546
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 23:33
Location: M6

Re: A47 Corridor improvement programme

Post by jackal »

Well, I have my doubts about how serious they really are. The sequencing for RIS2 and the RIS3 pipeline was only undertaken a year ago and this didn't make the cut - are they really going to find a couple of billion from nowhere?

I suspect the study is a sop to keep James Palmer and the A47 Alliance off the government's back after they got basically nothing in the RIS2 document (a nicer A1101 roundabout if they're lucky).
User avatar
roadtester
Member
Posts: 31475
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 18:05
Location: Cambridgeshire

Re: A47 Corridor improvement programme

Post by roadtester »

jackal wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:14 I suspect the study is a sop to keep James Palmer and the A47 Alliance off the government's back after they got basically nothing in the RIS2 document (a nicer A1101 roundabout if they're lucky).
Mayor Palmer is hyper-active when it comes to promoting schemes, but nothing much has come to fruition so far. Still, fair dos to him for making the effort and at least getting it on the agenda.

I don't know how it stacks up against all of the competing projects in terms of traffic flows/costs/benefits, but as a semi-local, I certainly feel like it needs doing. Apart from the Thorney bypass, most of the rest of the existing road isn't very pleasant, and doesn't feel that safe when it's busy.
Electrophorus Electricus

Check out #davidsdailycar on Mastodon
B1040
Member
Posts: 2283
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 15:51
Location: fenland

Re: A47 Corridor improvement programme

Post by B1040 »

jackal wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 08:36 Highways England are to carry out a strategic study of dualling the A47 between Peterborough and Wisbech.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.peterb ... 4535%3famp
The bit from Guyhirn to Wisbech will be welcome but difficult
User avatar
KeithW
Member
Posts: 19201
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 13:25
Location: Marton-In-Cleveland North Yorks

Re: A47 Corridor improvement programme

Post by KeithW »

Its is of course purely coincidental that the election for the office of Mayor of Peterborough and Cambridgeshire takes place on 6th May 2021, the 2017 election was rather close as I recall and while Mayor Palmer has promised many things delivering them has been quite another matter. Try as I might I see no signs of the Cambridge Metro system or dualling of the A10 he championed. I particularly admired the chutzpah displayed in his promise to extend the non existent metro to Alconbury

https://cambridgeshirepeterborough-ca.g ... -the-area/

Dont bother looking for the A10 proposal business case using the link on this page, it has disappeared.
https://www.smartertransport.uk/respond ... proposals/
Herned
Member
Posts: 1363
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 09:15

Re: A47 Corridor improvement programme

Post by Herned »

ais523 wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:28 This is something that would make a lot of sense in traffic terms – the stretch of A47 in question is the only really viable route between the Midlands and Norfolk, so a lot of traffic is funneled that way – but might end up being rather hard to build. Even maintaining a single carriageway A47 between the A141 and A1101 requires continuous effort (it doesn't take long after it's been repaired for it to subside again), the basic issue being that the land between Peterborough and Wisbech tends to be very flat with poor drainage.
Isn't that because it only gets patched and fixed and the underlying issues not solved? A new road on a proper foundation should be doable - the Thorney bypass has seemed flat every time I have driven along it - does Wisbech bypass have issues?
doebag
Member
Posts: 2311
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 11:47
Location: Wisbech, Cambs

Re: A47 Corridor improvement programme

Post by doebag »

I can't help thinking it may be easier to build a completely new off line dual carriageway between the eastern end of the Thorney by-pass and the southern end of the Wisbech by-pass.
Not sure what the cost difference would be though.
ais523
Member
Posts: 1139
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 19:52
Location: Birmingham

Re: A47 Corridor improvement programme

Post by ais523 »

Herned wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 13:09Isn't that because it only gets patched and fixed and the underlying issues not solved? A new road on a proper foundation should be doable - the Thorney bypass has seemed flat every time I have driven along it - does Wisbech bypass have issues?
The biggest issues are normally on the section immediately adjacent to the River Nene (between the A141 junction and the southern of the two B198 junctions). That seems to need repairs to the road foundation every few years. I think the Wisbech bypass itself is fairly stable, though.
User avatar
skiddaw05
Member
Posts: 2036
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 21:33
Location: Norwich

Re: A47 Corridor improvement programme

Post by skiddaw05 »

If the A47 North Burlingham bypass mentioned upthread a bit is anything to go by any dualling would probably be done offline. The section alongside the Nene is on an embankment and that's always bad news in the Fens - clearly evident on roads like the A1122 between Outwell and Downham Market as well - so a new road would almost certainly be built to the south of the existing alignment at a lower level
User avatar
thatapanydude
Member
Posts: 522
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2015 21:35
Location: Bedfordshire

Re: A47 Corridor improvement programme

Post by thatapanydude »

doebag wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 17:12 I can't help thinking it may be easier to build a completely new off line dual carriageway between the eastern end of the Thorney by-pass and the southern end of the Wisbech by-pass.
Not sure what the cost difference would be though.
That is my take too. I have worked it out at 8.5 miles including a tie in. I wonder how much you could get the cost down too though for just Thorney to the B198? A straight DC with at-grade junctions let's say (ofc not my choice but a pragmatic approach) ought to be achievable for around £250m?

At the King's Lynn end I would like to see the A47 go over the flyover at West Lynn then fork left after 1/2 mile back to the A47 roundabout - helps with extending some DC eastwards on the A17 too.
A1/A1(M) >>> M1
User avatar
Ruperts Trooper
Member
Posts: 12031
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2012 13:43
Location: Huntingdonshire originally, but now Staffordshire

Re: A47 Corridor improvement programme

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

skiddaw05 wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 23:04 If the A47 North Burlingham bypass mentioned upthread a bit is anything to go by any dualling would probably be done offline. The section alongside the Nene is on an embankment and that's always bad news in the Fens - clearly evident on roads like the A1122 between Outwell and Downham Market as well - so a new road would almost certainly be built to the south of the existing alignment at a lower level
Not sure you'd build a new road at lower level in the Fens - with climate change, the risk of widespread flooding is increased.
Lifelong motorhead
marconaf
Member
Posts: 290
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2018 14:42

Re: A47 Corridor improvement programme

Post by marconaf »

thatapanydude wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 23:22
doebag wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 17:12 I can't help thinking it may be easier to build a completely new off line dual carriageway between the eastern end of the Thorney by-pass and the southern end of the Wisbech by-pass.
Not sure what the cost difference would be though.
That is my take too. I have worked it out at 8.5 miles including a tie in. I wonder how much you could get the cost down too though for just Thorney to the B198? A straight DC with at-grade junctions let's say (ofc not my choice but a pragmatic approach) ought to be achievable for around £250m?

At the King's Lynn end I would like to see the A47 go over the flyover at West Lynn then fork left after 1/2 mile back to the A47 roundabout - helps with extending some DC eastwards on the A17 too.
That’s seems a good idea extending onto A17 for a short bit and missing out trying to dual the initial A47 S2 part which is fronted by a few accesses etc and then the problem of the existing small roundabout. It also gives the space for the A47 to be freeflow rather than the roundabout turn at West Lynn. Although expensive vs just widening.

The Wisbeach bypass, seems better to leave the existing S2 as is and cut through slighlty furrher south in open land (tricky near Elm). That then allows the existing road to become a distributor for housing infill to justify the work. Or go N of Wisbesch and cut the corner to the Thorney section and cut out Guyhirn. Geology is likely to be challenging and require a raised road.

Rapidly becomes a big project!
User avatar
roadtester
Member
Posts: 31475
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 18:05
Location: Cambridgeshire

Re: A47 Corridor improvement programme

Post by roadtester »

marconaf wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:20 The Wisbeach bypass, seems better to leave the existing S2 as is and cut through slighlty furrher south in open land (tricky near Elm). That then allows the existing road to become a distributor for housing infill to justify the work. Or go N of Wisbesch and cut the corner to the Thorney section and cut out Guyhirn. Geology is likely to be challenging and require a raised road.
On the other hand, I'm guessing that because the Wisbech bypass isn't that old, that has already addressed the geological problems via modern methods and that give a financial argument in favour of just dualling on line.

The other issue is how to accommodate the rail link into Wisbech if that is reopened. It used to cross the current road via a - still visible - level crossing, but they'll have to think of something else for an upgraded/dualled road, whether on or off line.

Which, come to think of it, would be a good reason to take your northern option.
Electrophorus Electricus

Check out #davidsdailycar on Mastodon
Fenlander
Member
Posts: 7801
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 21:54
Location: south Lincolnshire

Re: A47 Corridor improvement programme

Post by Fenlander »

Ruperts Trooper wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 08:08
skiddaw05 wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 23:04 If the A47 North Burlingham bypass mentioned upthread a bit is anything to go by any dualling would probably be done offline. The section alongside the Nene is on an embankment and that's always bad news in the Fens - clearly evident on roads like the A1122 between Outwell and Downham Market as well - so a new road would almost certainly be built to the south of the existing alignment at a lower level
Not sure you'd build a new road at lower level in the Fens - with climate change, the risk of widespread flooding is increased.
The A16 Spalding to Peterborough was built from scratch on a new alignment and done entirely on the flat, it opened just over 10years ago. There are bits of it sinking, ancient dried up river routes that are basically a slow moving silt underground, we get them in town too with some very noticeable depressions in the road.
User avatar
thatapanydude
Member
Posts: 522
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2015 21:35
Location: Bedfordshire

Re: A47 Corridor improvement programme

Post by thatapanydude »

marconaf wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:20
thatapanydude wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 23:22
doebag wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 17:12 I can't help thinking it may be easier to build a completely new off line dual carriageway between the eastern end of the Thorney by-pass and the southern end of the Wisbech by-pass.
Not sure what the cost difference would be though.
That is my take too. I have worked it out at 8.5 miles including a tie in. I wonder how much you could get the cost down too though for just Thorney to the B198? A straight DC with at-grade junctions let's say (ofc not my choice but a pragmatic approach) ought to be achievable for around £250m?

At the King's Lynn end I would like to see the A47 go over the flyover at West Lynn then fork left after 1/2 mile back to the A47 roundabout - helps with extending some DC eastwards on the A17 too.
That’s seems a good idea extending onto A17 for a short bit and missing out trying to dual the initial A47 S2 part which is fronted by a few accesses etc and then the problem of the existing small roundabout. It also gives the space for the A47 to be freeflow rather than the roundabout turn at West Lynn. Although expensive vs just widening.

The Wisbeach bypass, seems better to leave the existing S2 as is and cut through slighlty furrher south in open land (tricky near Elm). That then allows the existing road to become a distributor for housing infill to justify the work. Or go N of Wisbesch and cut the corner to the Thorney section and cut out Guyhirn. Geology is likely to be challenging and require a raised road.

Rapidly becomes a big project!
This would be my ideal sort out. Take the A47 north of Wisbech with a nice tie up at the Kings Lynn end too. Surely could be done for £500m?
Attachments
A47 Wisbech Upgrade.gif
A1/A1(M) >>> M1
doebag
Member
Posts: 2311
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 11:47
Location: Wisbech, Cambs

Re: A47 Corridor improvement programme

Post by doebag »

I think any route north of Wisbech would get approval, there is a long standing argument for a northern by-pass to accomodate traffic having to cross the River Nene at Freedom Bridge.

As for the 2 miles of S2 Pullover Road up to the A17, would compulsory purchase of any properties be cheaper than a complete off line new build ?
User avatar
jackal
Member
Posts: 7546
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 23:33
Location: M6

Re: A47 Corridor improvement programme

Post by jackal »

thatapanydude wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 15:10
This would be my ideal sort out. Take the A47 north of Wisbech with a nice tie up at the Kings Lynn end too. Surely could be done for £500m?
Comparable schemes like the A428 Black Cat and A120 to A12 are estimated around £100m per mile. You have 16 miles on your map, plus another 4 if you wanted to dual between Peterborough and Thorney - hence my suggestion of £2bn upthread.

The future proofing at West Lynn is to 70s standards so there'd be a weaving space of 600m to the GSJ on the other side of the Great Ouse. I'd rather suggest folding the slips to the west.
User avatar
Truvelo
Member
Posts: 17467
Joined: Wed May 29, 2002 21:10
Location: Staffordshire
Contact:

Re: A47 Corridor improvement programme

Post by Truvelo »

£2bn seems a little high for what is perfectly flat terrain and I imagine land costs are lower than they would be in the vicinity of the A428 and A12. Even if it did cost this much it would be a better long term solution than tinkering about with the existing route around Guyhirn.
How would you like your grade separations, Sir?
Big and complex.
Rogndave
Member
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2015 20:45

Re: A47 Corridor improvement programme

Post by Rogndave »

Wisbech has a port with an annual volume of 800,000 tons of freight. How would a northern by-pass deal with this? A high level bridge, at what cost? An opening bridge - should be loads of fun! Close the port down - perhaps no longer needed due to Brexit! Or maybe a tunnel, just like Scotland - Ireland! Seriously, how could this problem be addressed at reasonable cost, if at all?
Post Reply