M3 Junction 9 Improvements

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jackal
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M3 Junction 9 Improvements

Post by jackal »

Another major scheme with construction to start by Spring 2020 (Brexit permitting...), this junction has been a particular favourite for fantasy improvements. It will be interesting to see what HE come up with. The scheme page gives a cost of £50m-£100m, with 'the aim to allow free movement between the A34 and the M3'.
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wrinkly
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Re: M3 Junction 9 Improvements

Post by wrinkly »

I wonder if it will also fix the nearby offside divergence of the A33.
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Re: M3 Junction 9 Improvements

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wrinkly wrote:I wonder if it will also fix the nearby offside divergence of the A33.
Oh, I hope so - that's the most dangerous bit of my journey from Poole to Oxford. It's not really acceptable to have what is in effect a length of single carriageway in the middle of the A34
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jackal
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Re: M3 Junction 9 Improvements

Post by jackal »

wrinkly wrote:I wonder if it will also fix the nearby offside divergence of the A33.
I think that's almost certain as it's close enough that it will be considered as part of the scheme and there's a strong aversion to offside merges and diverges in the UK. Indeed, none of the 13 four-way full access interchanges in the UK have an offside merge or diverge, compared with, for instance, 4 of the 10 equivalent interchanges in Austria, and 8 of the 29 in France.
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Re: M3 Junction 9 Improvements

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The A33/A34 split was never like that in pre-M3 days or, a few years after either. About 50% of the traffic would have taken the A33(T) by using the outside lane but, I'm sure that A34 traffic could also use it and just go straight on there. It wasn't separated. It didn't cause any problems, as there was no conflict. There were 2 lanes on the A33 as well, from the junction.

Perhaps then, the A34 was the slip road, not the A33 so, it wasn't an offside divergence. I'm sure official county photos must exist somewhere, from its opening in 1967.
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Re: M3 Junction 9 Improvements

Post by Johnathan404 »

This is a major bottleneck but a risky one to touch as the M3 southbound through here suffers from congestion caused by the volume of traffic joining. Such a scheme would ideally be combined with managed motorway and/or J10 improvements.

The last I heard the plan was to build a southbound flyover only, so no need to touch the A33 split. I hope the opportunity has been taken to improve both directions, but perhaps we will be lucky to see anything at all.
SteveA30 wrote:I'm sure official county photos must exist somewhere, from its opening in 1967.
Not that I'm aware of. There are opening photos as far south as the railway bridge, and M3 opening photos only cover the former sections of the Winchester Bypass.
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Re: M3 Junction 9 Improvements

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Johnathan404 wrote:The last I heard the plan was to build a southbound flyover only, so no need to touch the A33 split.
Even a southbound flyover would surely require works within the A33 junction. If the new diverge was south of the A33 merge there would be severe weaving.
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Re: M3 Junction 9 Improvements

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SteveA30 wrote:The A33/A34 split was never like that in pre-M3 days or, a few years after either. About 50% of the traffic would have taken the A33(T) by using the outside lane but, I'm sure that A34 traffic could also use it and just go straight on there. It wasn't separated. It didn't cause any problems, as there was no conflict. There were 2 lanes on the A33 as well, from the junction.

Perhaps then, the A34 was the slip road, not the A33 so, it wasn't an offside divergence. I'm sure official county photos must exist somewhere, from its opening in 1967.
I spent a week at Bournemouth in 1970 and drove or was driven over this junction two or three times, including at least once northbound and at least once southbound. I'm trying to remember the road markings.

I think it was roughly similar to today but with less paint:

Northbound, you had to get in the correct lane for the route you wanted, but once past the divergence each route was two lanes.

Southbound there were two through lanes on the A34, and the A33 was treated as the minor road, but without a tiger tail or ghost island - just an ordinary slip road merge.

I wouldn't swear to it though.

(The only time I've been there since was in 1976, so I don't have a lot of recent memories to confuse me.)
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Re: M3 Junction 9 Improvements

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wrinkly wrote: Northbound, you had to get in the correct lane for the route you wanted, but once past the divergence each route was two lanes.
That is quite correct. I once, shortly after I was married, when we were driving from Bournemouth towards Surrey, my wife was driving and was using some unladylike language about the driver behind us flashing his lights. Eventually the driver concerned put his foot down, revved his engine oand proceded to overtake us on the left hand side. Our last memories of him was seeing his brake lights coming on as he found himself half-way to Newbury.
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Re: M3 Junction 9 Improvements

Post by sotonsteve »

I think preliminary design ideas for Junction 9 look a bit like the schematic shown below:
M3 J9.jpg
M3 J9 would become a half junction for local traffic, with J10 acting as the south facing slip roads. The A34 would freeflow onto the M3, but the A33 junction would not be changed (which would present both a northbound safety and capacity issue). Also, traffic exiting southbound at Junction 9 onto the local network would be presented with a very short weaving section before the dumbbell roundabout where the A34 slip road and M3 slip road meet.

It will be interesting to see what actually materialises during consultation.
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Re: M3 Junction 9 Improvements

Post by Truvelo »

I do think it's a missed opportunity not to sort out the A33/A34 merge at the same time. There is space in the middle to run a new road as some of the fantasy layouts has shown.
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Re: M3 Junction 9 Improvements

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sotonsteve wrote:I think preliminary design ideas for Junction 9 look a bit like the schematic shown below:
How long would the weaving section for northbound traffic heading from the M4 to the A34 be? Would it be a case of move over immediately or end up on the A33 or would there be a bit more space?

Given that I'm not familiar with the A33/A34 split, how easy would it be for the layout to be changed to allow two lanes to head onto the A34 with a right-hand exit for the A33?
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Re: M3 Junction 9 Improvements

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vlad wrote:Given that I'm not familiar with the A33/A34 split, how easy would it be for the layout to be changed to allow two lanes to head onto the A34 with a right-hand exit for the A33?
Really easy - in fact drivers of a certain make of vehicle seem to think that's the layout anyway. The question is do you want to solve the problem, or move it around a bit?
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Re: M3 Junction 9 Improvements

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That's how it was until the late 80's/early 90's. Outside lane traffic either went straight on along the A34 or veered right on to the A33. I remember my surprise when the outside lane was segregated, after most of the A33 traffic had gone to the M3. It doesn't cause a problem if some still A34'ers still use it. They can't collide with anything taking the A33, the onus is on A33'ers to indicate. It just needs to revert to the previous layout.
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Re: M3 Junction 9 Improvements

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vlad wrote:How long would the weaving section for northbound traffic heading from the M4 to the A34 be? Would it be a case of move over immediately or end up on the A33 or would there be a bit more space?
From the top of the current M3 slip, which is in roughly the same area, I make it about 900m. Southbound will actually be even tighter, about 750m.

I'd be surprised to see such tight weaving areas created on a strategic route so needlessly. It is only the closure of south-facing slips at J9 that creates this issue, and I can't see any operational reason why they should be closed.
Given that I'm not familiar with the A33/A34 split, how easy would it be for the layout to be changed to allow two lanes to head onto the A34 with a right-hand exit for the A33?
Any offside exit is unsafe, but a lane drop is less unsafe than a regular offside exit, so I don't see them reverting to the latter.
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Re: M3 Junction 9 Improvements

Post by Richardf »

The problems such as they are with the A34/A33 split is a legacy of when the junction was built. Designed and built in the late 60s the designers thought 2 lanes approaching the split were enough for the traffic it was to serve. The A33 was the main through route and the A34 was S2 from the end of the Bypass. Contrast this with another such junction, the A38/A380 split, designed and built later with 2 dedicated lanes for each route on the approach SB. If the Winchester version had been built later and not been superceded by the M3 then it would/should have the same, space permitting. The irony is even as it is it is a better junction than its successor, M3 J9!

The big problem with J9 is the need for local access, if not for Winnal Road and the Spitfire Link the junction could easily be freeflow. Perhaps if J10 (and even J11) were better designed and placed and or the motorway and LAR (Spitfire Link) were reversed then you might not need to provide the local links at J9. As it is I can't see how to get around it and make M3 to A34 freeflow in either direction without plenty of substantial engineering.
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Re: M3 Junction 9 Improvements

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Richardf wrote:The irony is even as it is it is a better junction than its successor, M3 J9
It's ok southbound, but it's really bad northbound when it's busy as two lanes worth of A34 traffic jostles into a single lane to get past the split. There's not even any road markings to make it clearer what's going on.
Then you get the drivers of (usually) BMWs and Audis who won't fit in until the last possible minute, and don't then even care if there's a gap or not.
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Re: M3 Junction 9 Improvements

Post by Richardf »

SteveA30 wrote:That's how it was until the late 80's/early 90's. Outside lane traffic either went straight on along the A34 or veered right on to the A33. I remember my surprise when the outside lane was segregated, after most of the A33 traffic had gone to the M3. It doesn't cause a problem if some still A34'ers still use it. They can't collide with anything taking the A33, the onus is on A33'ers to indicate. It just needs to revert to the previous layout.
Must cause a pinch point on the A34 at busy times. Unnesesary given the A34 is the busier road. Could understand the segregation pre-M3 when the A33 had equal status but not now.
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Re: M3 Junction 9 Improvements

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andrewwoods wrote:Then you get the drivers of (usually) BMWs and Audis who won't fit in until the last possible minute, and don't then even care if there's a gap or not.
It was here my dad coined his Dad-driver catchphrase: "how much do you want to bet he's coming this way?"
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Re: M3 Junction 9 Improvements

Post by Richardf »

There must be space on the right side of the A34 approaching the split to add an off slip for the A33 and leave both main running lanes for the A34.

So what option for J9 M3 do we think the HA will go for? Speculation and fantasy layouts are one thing but what's the reality likely to be?
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