M3 Junction 9 Improvements

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Richardf
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Re: M3 Junction 9 Improvements

Post by Richardf »

Witnessed exactly the 'bad' lane behaviour at these junctions that you all speak of, on my recent occasion using it.

Firstly when using the M3 roundabout going M3 to A34 NB, we were in the nearside lane through the roundabout and another car basically used the offside lane to overtake us, cutting back into the nearside lane right in front us when taking the A34 exit.

Then going up to the A34/A33 split something came up the A33 lane and just carried on to the offside lane of the A34. Fortunately nothing had started to move out from the LH/A34 lane!

This said i can't see an issue making both lanes A34, the A33 isn't a busy road and the A34 mainline could use the capacity.
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B4444
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Re: M3 Junction 9 Improvements

Post by B4444 »

I noticed this week that there was some large pit digging and a line of stakes along the route of the proposed A34 south slip to M3. Archaeology I presume. Road work scheduled to start 2021.
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Re: M3 Junction 9 Improvements

Post by jackal »

A new consultation has opened on this. I was pleased to see that the northbound slip to the A33/A34 has been realigned so it comes from the existing northbound onslip and merges in earlier, lengthening the weaving space: https://highwaysengland.citizenspace.co ... rawing.pdf

Essentially the same solution was proposed by 6637 on p. 7 of this thread. I seconded and posted a sketch at p. 8:

Image

The consultants (WSP) have clearly been lurking the thread pretty hard as the other main weaving solution they considered was proposed by RichardA35 and Herned at pp. 6 and 7. Herned's version:

Image

WSP's version (click to enlarge):
M3 J9 Option 14 Alternative Link 3 - Copy.PNG
Good job all round :)

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Re: M3 Junction 9 Improvements

Post by Richardf »

Looks good. Simplifies the layout and mirrors what happens on the southbound side.

Still does nothing about the A34/A33 diverge issues though.
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Re: M3 Junction 9 Improvements

Post by SteveA30 »

I'm sure the A33 was simply a diverge off the outside lane of the A34 in pre-M3 days, not the separate lanes of now. It didn't cause any problems. Overtakers on both roads just had to wait until after the diverge, when the 2 lines of lorries took their respective roads.
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Bryn666
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Re: M3 Junction 9 Improvements

Post by Bryn666 »

The rules get all hot and bothered at the thought of offside exits.

Spoiler: there's one going into Heathrow Terminal 5. The sky is still above it and yet to fall in...

My sketch for J9 put the A33 west of the A34 as a separate road but I think spatial constraints prevent that being totally workable.
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Re: M3 Junction 9 Improvements

Post by Chris5156 »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2019 22:50Spoiler: there's one going into Heathrow Terminal 5. The sky is still above it and yet to fall in...
That’ll be another one at Heathrow T5 then - there’s one already. Exit clockwise M25 at J14, and the T5 spur forms a right-hand exit from the sliproad, for some reason.
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Re: M3 Junction 9 Improvements

Post by Bryn666 »

Chris5156 wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2019 23:09
Bryn666 wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2019 22:50Spoiler: there's one going into Heathrow Terminal 5. The sky is still above it and yet to fall in...
That’ll be another one at Heathrow T5 then - there’s one already. Exit clockwise M25 at J14, and the T5 spur forms a right-hand exit from the sliproad, for some reason.
That's the one I meant.

I don't think HAL have proposed any offside exits. Just a knot of slip roads!
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Re: M3 Junction 9 Improvements

Post by jackal »

The plan now seems to include an offside diverge. See 0.50:



It's a small thing, but I'm not keen on the gratuitous roundabout for accessing... HE's own depot!
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Re: M3 Junction 9 Improvements

Post by Herned »

Very sensible. Good to see them being pragmatic about the A33. My idea was better though!
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Re: M3 Junction 9 Improvements

Post by Bryn666 »

Surprisingly not terrible as a design.
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Johnathan404
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Re: M3 Junction 9 Improvements

Post by Johnathan404 »

Glad to see the feedback has been taken on board.

I still insist the old south-facing slips at M3 J9 should be removed:
1) It would reduce weaving on the congested M3 mainline, especially with traffic preparing for the major A34 exit.
2) It would only serve Winnall Trading Estate, which does not warrant direct motorway access.
3) The alternative route via M3 J10 is hardly going out of your way.

But I appreciate this is probably as good as it will get and it's not a bad effort.
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Re: M3 Junction 9 Improvements

Post by RichardA35 »

jackal wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2019 00:28It's a small thing, but I'm not keen on the gratuitous roundabout for accessing... HE's own depot!
Not really gratuitous - the access and egress must be available for all directions so the access road south of the roundabout is two way. The alternative would either be a "fast" side exit northbound to access the M3 or more likely a "left out" only leading south to a circumnavigation of the entire dumbbell to head back north onto the M3.
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Re: M3 Junction 9 Improvements

Post by Johnathan404 »

SteveA30 wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2019 21:33 I'm sure the A33 was simply a diverge off the outside lane of the A34 in pre-M3 days, not the separate lanes of now. It didn't cause any problems. Overtakers on both roads just had to wait until after the diverge, when the 2 lines of lorries took their respective roads.
I don't want to doubt you, but that is a surprise. The traffic flow would have been evenly split in the pre-M3 days, possibly even heavier on the A33 side. Until 1967 the A34 didn't even get a look in, with traffic having to go through Winchester before meeting the A33.
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jackal
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Re: M3 Junction 9 Improvements

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RichardA35 wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2019 09:49
jackal wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2019 00:28It's a small thing, but I'm not keen on the gratuitous roundabout for accessing... HE's own depot!
Not really gratuitous - the access and egress must be available for all directions so the access road south of the roundabout is two way. The alternative would either be a "fast" side exit northbound to access the M3 or more likely a "left out" only leading south to a circumnavigation of the entire dumbbell to head back north onto the M3.
What advantage is there to a roundabout compared to something like this, which requires less new construction and doesn't have all M3 slip road traffic braking and accelerating unnecessarily?

M3 J9 HE - Copy.png
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Re: M3 Junction 9 Improvements

Post by Bryn666 »

Site security is one; you've got two points of access, so that's two gates.

Slower moving site traffic entering the M3 slip road on the right will cause bigger safety problems than a roundabout.
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Re: M3 Junction 9 Improvements

Post by jackal »

Fair points in principle but they are more complaints with the status quo than with what I'm suggesting, and there doesn't seem to be any record of a collision at that access from the M3 onslip anyway (see first figure):

https://highwaysengland.citizenspace.co ... esAtoE.pdf

There's a weird looped rejected option in there as well.
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Re: M3 Junction 9 Improvements

Post by A320Driver »

If a roundabout (which will be lightly trafficked) is the price to pay for a seemingly these days rare free flow junction then I’d say it’s a bargain.
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Re: M3 Junction 9 Improvements

Post by Bryn666 »

jackal wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:12 Fair points in principle but they are more complaints with the status quo than with what I'm suggesting, and there doesn't seem to be any record of a collision at that access from the M3 onslip anyway (see first figure):

https://highwaysengland.citizenspace.co ... esAtoE.pdf

There's a weird looped rejected option in there as well.
Yes but a road safety audit will raise it, as well as the fact that the site needs to be accessible to any staff/visitors who aren't driving. From this POV a roundabout is about the only arrangement that satisfies those concerns. It's worth pointing out the existing exit off the M3 entry slip is under motorway regulations so no NMU access there, and the A33 side is a royal mess with a tiny mini-roundabout trying to manage conflicting flows.

"The status quo was fine until it wasn't" is never a good defence in court.
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Re: M3 Junction 9 Improvements

Post by Micro The Maniac »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2019 22:50 The rules get all hot and bothered at the thought of offside exits.
I've long wondered why the main/through-route has to diverge off at junctions such as:
  • M6(N) J20 - the M56 diverges off the A50 slip, not the (obvious) other way around
  • M25(both ways) J5 - a TOTSO, where an offside diverge for the M26 would make more sense
  • M6(S) J11A - a TOTSO, where an offside diverge for the M6(Toll) carrying on would make more sense
  • etc etc
In fact, it doesn't have to be marked as an exit, just a separation of lanes into separate carriageways, as with the M25/M3 junction (amongst others)
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