Provided they don't screw up the connection between the A12 and new A120, the quickest route from Colchester to Central London (and northern part of the M25) will be via the A120 and M11. Which is why the A12 widening and A120 dualling should really have been considered as a single project.thatapanydude wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 20:56Given the expected AADT increase, I wonder if HE would look at free flowing A12 to M25(N) for London traffic wanting to use the M11 as they have done (are doing) with the A13.
A12 Chelmsford to A120 Widening Scheme
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- SouthWest Philip
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Re: A12 Chelmsford to A120 Widening Scheme
- thatapanydude
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- Location: Bedfordshire
Re: A12 Chelmsford to A120 Widening Scheme
Oh yes I forgot about that - a long overdue scheme. Only been once on the A120 on a trip to Mersea Island and it reminds me of the A428 (HQDC crashing into a dangerous and busy S2).SouthWest Philip wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 21:12Provided they don't screw up the connection between the A12 and new A120, the quickest route from Colchester to Central London (and northern part of the M25) will be via the A120 and M11. Which is why the A12 widening and A120 dualling should really have been considered as a single project.thatapanydude wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 20:56Given the expected AADT increase, I wonder if HE would look at free flowing A12 to M25(N) for London traffic wanting to use the M11 as they have done (are doing) with the A13.
My major concern about the scheme was that it was going to join the A12 between Witham and Kelvedon to make it a real dog-leg of a bypass (the old route might still be quicker)!! It might be better served actually following the route more closely from Marks Tey considering the A131 serves Baintree well for southbound traffic.
A1/A1(M) >>> M1
Re: A12 Chelmsford to A120 Widening Scheme
Yes, the A120 dogleg is stupid, and seems to be based on the idea that A120 Braintree traffic doesn't want to get to Colchester but rather... Witham.
It seems to be purely driven by cost (shortest route to the A12), which is a false economy as it would require further upgrades to the A12 due to the extra multiplex between Marks Tey and Witham, and London traffic staying on the A12 in preference to a circuitous A120/M11.
It seems to be purely driven by cost (shortest route to the A12), which is a false economy as it would require further upgrades to the A12 due to the extra multiplex between Marks Tey and Witham, and London traffic staying on the A12 in preference to a circuitous A120/M11.
Re: A12 Chelmsford to A120 Widening Scheme
Have made the following suggestions in the consultation:
1/ This section should be reclassified as motorway, given current and predicted traffic levels.
2/ Provision should be made for an online MSA
3/ Provision should be made for a free-flow connection to the new A120.
1/ This section should be reclassified as motorway, given current and predicted traffic levels.
2/ Provision should be made for an online MSA
3/ Provision should be made for a free-flow connection to the new A120.
- Andrew_S_Hatton
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Re: A12 Chelmsford to A120 Widening Scheme
Concerns are increasing in the Tiptree area about the scheme having a very negative impact and causing clogging on the main road through the village particularly because the connections to the A 12 via either Kelvedon or Rivenhall are of such a low standard - there are places where two buses cannot pass and these are major routes to haulage and industral depots which are prolific throughoyt the area as far as Tollesbury and even West Mersea (still with limited access)- where boats are hauled.
A contributor has posted this today https://www.facebook.com/groups/tiptree ... 399405812/
"A 2017 survey of the Factory Corner junction shows 195 vehicles passing from Factory Hill to Station Road and 90 in the opposite direction in the 8-9 am peak hour also 67+46 vehicles traverse between Station and Chapel Roads. This would imply that up to an additional 400 vehicles (allowing for South Church Road and Chapel Road) might travel the full length of Church Road, that do not already do so, if they are attracted to the new J24. This adds to the 950 vehicles that are already on Church Road in the peak hour, surveyed 2016.
The Commodity Centre on Braxted Road before Appleford Bridge got planning permission to expand in 2019 and 2020 from Maldon District. Appleford Bridge is in Braintree District. The major users of the bridge are travelling to and from Tiptree in Colchester Borough. We need some joined up thinking with the A12 widening consultation to get improvements to Appleford Bridge and the route to it.
To help preserve at least the status quo in Church Road and Inworth, surely it would be possible to make some improvements to the Braxted Park Road route, such as:
• Building a new bridge beside the listed Appleford Bridge
• Straightening Braxted Road near Appleford Bridge
• Improving the Braxted Park Road junctions with Tiptree Road and the B1022 Maldon Road to improve safety and afford the traffic on the various arms of these junctions a more equitable passage.
Tiptree deserves better!"
My photograph of Church Road is from a good few years ago.
A contributor has posted this today https://www.facebook.com/groups/tiptree ... 399405812/
"A 2017 survey of the Factory Corner junction shows 195 vehicles passing from Factory Hill to Station Road and 90 in the opposite direction in the 8-9 am peak hour also 67+46 vehicles traverse between Station and Chapel Roads. This would imply that up to an additional 400 vehicles (allowing for South Church Road and Chapel Road) might travel the full length of Church Road, that do not already do so, if they are attracted to the new J24. This adds to the 950 vehicles that are already on Church Road in the peak hour, surveyed 2016.
The Commodity Centre on Braxted Road before Appleford Bridge got planning permission to expand in 2019 and 2020 from Maldon District. Appleford Bridge is in Braintree District. The major users of the bridge are travelling to and from Tiptree in Colchester Borough. We need some joined up thinking with the A12 widening consultation to get improvements to Appleford Bridge and the route to it.
To help preserve at least the status quo in Church Road and Inworth, surely it would be possible to make some improvements to the Braxted Park Road route, such as:
• Building a new bridge beside the listed Appleford Bridge
• Straightening Braxted Road near Appleford Bridge
• Improving the Braxted Park Road junctions with Tiptree Road and the B1022 Maldon Road to improve safety and afford the traffic on the various arms of these junctions a more equitable passage.
Tiptree deserves better!"
My photograph of Church Road is from a good few years ago.
Re: A12 Chelmsford to A120 Widening Scheme
@Andrew_S_Hatton - those roads come under ECC? I'm very familiar with Mersea Island and its tidal causeway. The locals have been persistently opposed to building a new road. They think they're special on the island. Appalling quality of driving out there, best they stay on the island. Can't for one minute see how roads to the A12 from Mersea or indeed isolated Tollesbury have any relevance to the new A12 junctions.
Re: A12 Chelmsford to A120 Widening Scheme
No one wants to go to Witham. It's a complete hole.jackal wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 07:36 Yes, the A120 dogleg is stupid, and seems to be based on the idea that A120 Braintree traffic doesn't want to get to Colchester but rather... Witham.
It seems to be purely driven by cost (shortest route to the A12), which is a false economy as it would require further upgrades to the A12 due to the extra multiplex between Marks Tey and Witham, and London traffic staying on the A12 in preference to a circuitous A120/M11.
Re: A12 Chelmsford to A120 Widening Scheme
Firstly, trumpet interchanges take up lots of land (at least the ones we would have to build here to satisfy the DRMB standards on curvature of the inner loop) which means the 'rules' actively discourages them.ABB125 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 13:13Now that the existing J23 south of Kelvedon is going to be removed, surely a trumpet is a no-brainer (since there's no longer any complication due to local access etc)?Chris5156 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:47The new A12/A120 junction is part of the A120 scheme, not this one - but yes, the preferred design is another dumbbell.SouthWest Philip wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 21:18 The absence of provision for the new section of the A120 between the A12 and Braintree is something of a concern. Anything less than full freeflow between the A120 to the west and A12 to the east will be a disaster. But I wouldn't put it past HE to just tack the A120 onto the A12 with another dumbbell junction.
The second point is that a trumpet prevents further development - Remember for the past decade the Governments attitude is "Development is always good and must be facilitated at all costs" A dumbbell interchange is perfect for this while being nice and cheap to build - hence why we are seeing a dumbbell interchange being built on the M11 at the new 7A junction.
- Andrew_S_Hatton
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Re: A12 Chelmsford to A120 Widening Scheme
The issue is about the fact that many who use the Rivenhall End and Kelvedon junctions, which include folk as far away as Mersea Island and Tollesbury, both of which attract many visitors, in normal times, fear that the whole process of the widening and realigning will impact on them, particularly folk already concerned about poor provision of roads in Tiptree area exacerbated by much new residential development, with still more planned ever since the HGV limits were increased to whatver they are now (44tons?)
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- Andrew_S_Hatton
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Re: A12 Chelmsford to A120 Widening Scheme
What an uninformed opinion, unworthy of a proper discussion. It is not a place I much use but it is a historic Essex town centres with some current businsses going back over a century, as well as bring an important stop, since about 1845 on the Great Eastern Railway.
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Re: A12 Chelmsford to A120 Widening Scheme
Indeed, CD122 now precludes the use of trumpet style interchanges where the minor road approach is high speed, which it would be in the case of the A120 approach. Here, it would be preferrable if the north facing slips to an A120 junction could still be free flow as they have the heaviest traffic movements, for the south facing ones this is less important.Phil wrote: ↑Sat Aug 07, 2021 05:44Firstly, trumpet interchanges take up lots of land (at least the ones we would have to build here to satisfy the DRMB standards on curvature of the inner loop) which means the 'rules' actively discourages them.
Re: A12 Chelmsford to A120 Widening Scheme
In which case the DMRB is unfit for purpose. Other countries cope fine with trumpets; why can't we?JonB2028 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 07, 2021 12:57Indeed, CD122 now precludes the use of trumpet style interchanges where the minor road approach is high speed, which it would be in the case of the A120 approach. Here, it would be preferrable if the north facing slips to an A120 junction could still be free flow as they have the heaviest traffic movements, for the south facing ones this is less important.
Re: A12 Chelmsford to A120 Widening Scheme
Because our engineering overlords are morons who think international best practice is something to ignore.ABB125 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 07, 2021 15:28In which case the DMRB is unfit for purpose. Other countries cope fine with trumpets; why can't we?JonB2028 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 07, 2021 12:57Indeed, CD122 now precludes the use of trumpet style interchanges where the minor road approach is high speed, which it would be in the case of the A120 approach. Here, it would be preferrable if the north facing slips to an A120 junction could still be free flow as they have the heaviest traffic movements, for the south facing ones this is less important.
Highway engineering in this country is dead on its arse and being flogged even further by "innovators" who think a trumpet interchange is dangerous and confusing but a dumbbell roundabout is somehow super duper. These same "innovators" have given us nonsense like yellow signs saying "You are now leaving the road works" instead of using the prescribed end of roadworks sign like normal people.
The DMRB is indeed unfit for purpose and has been rewritten to make it even more so unfit. The absolute nonsense it requires, for example radii and superelevation requirements that mean a link road resembles Monza but has a 30 mph speed limit because apparently no one can drive around a corner unless it is 90m+ and super elevated.
It's got steadily worse since the HA became HE, all they're interested in is how glossy their next self-congratulatory PR brochure can be.
Meanwhile these dumbing down of layouts, inconsistent application of the rules - HE will grant departures from standards for themselves but expect third parties to be absolutely rigidly compliant, cut and paste design - which is why every gantry looks like a nuclear bomb shelter (why bother designing for the site, just use a massive over design at great expense, the same is done with signs, why use the National Annex in BS EN 12899 when you can just design everything to WL8 and spend another four grand on concrete!), and the general untidiness and lack of maintenance have given us a trunk road network that is a national disgrace.
Fatalities on smart motorways? Not our problem guv, must be user error. HE are beyond accountable and anything they do is handwaved. I'd love to know what kompromat they have on government ministers who should be kicking their backsides in.
Case in point is the current many miles of 40 limit on the A63 approaching Hull because they've taken the barrier out and can't be bothered to install a temporary one. I bet that site is raking in a fortune in speeding fines. How is it safe to have 60 mph single carriageways but a dual carriageway without a barrier must be 40?
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
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Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Re: A12 Chelmsford to A120 Widening Scheme
I read somewhere about 3 months ago that HE is being prepared for full privatisation. Is this the training for it?
Roads and holidays in the west, before motorways.
http://trektothewest.shutterfly.com
http://holidayroads.webs.com/
http://trektothewest.shutterfly.com
http://holidayroads.webs.com/
Re: A12 Chelmsford to A120 Widening Scheme
You need to delete the word 'engineering' from that statement! - the reason things are in such a mess is precisely because the senior management of the likes of HE have no engineering expertise and fail to comprehend the need for it either.
PR? Essential for producing glossy brochures and internet stuff saying how wonderful we are.
Finance? Absolutely essential - those beans don't count themselves you know!
Law? Essential so we can blame others for our poor procedures.
Engineering? - completely unnecessary, after all engineers are just arse scratching builders and we can buy them in when we need them.
Mind you we have been here before - Railtrack saw itself as a property developer / real estate owner that just happened to have pesky railway tracks running through investment opportunities and thus stuffed itself full of everything other than engineering skills! Look how well that went......
Re: A12 Chelmsford to A120 Widening Scheme
My experience of using the A12 approaching Rivenhall in the evenings is that more traffic comes off here than might be anticipated, and with a short slip road which then bends to the left in to a residential street, there is a lot of late braking and traffic moving in to lane 2, which filters back down the A12 for several miles, often to Hatfield Peverel, and sometimes back and beyond Boreham, on to the Chelmsford bypass. Turning off at Rivenhall and using the higher quality Braxted Park Road, even with the priority bridge and the subsequent slow sweeping corners approaching Braxted Park, is a better route for Tiptree than coming off at Kelvedon, waiting an age sometimes to get round all the parked cars on the main road and the high street, then taking the slower B1023 and its narrow bridge at Inworth.Andrew_S_Hatton wrote: ↑Sat Aug 07, 2021 12:06 The issue is about the fact that many who use the Rivenhall End and Kelvedon junctions, which include folk as far away as Mersea Island and Tollesbury, both of which attract many visitors, in normal times, fear that the whole process of the widening and realigning will impact on them, particularly folk already concerned about poor provision of roads in Tiptree area exacerbated by much new residential development, with still more planned ever since the HGV limits were increased to whatver they are now (44tons?)
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- Andrew_S_Hatton
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Re: A12 Chelmsford to A120 Widening Scheme
That too is my experience, although now I rarely leave my home betwixt Tiptree and Tolleshunt Knights thus I believe a better and safer connection is needed from the A12 particularly towards London that connects to but bypasses Church Road, Tipree..Runwell wrote:My experience of using the A12 approaching Rivenhall in the evenings is that more traffic comes off here than might be anticipated, and with a short slip road which then bends to the left in to a residential street, there is a lot of late braking and traffic moving in to lane 2, which filters back down the A12 for several miles, often to Hatfield Peverel, and sometimes back and beyond Boreham, on to the Chelmsford bypass. Turning off at Rivenhall and using the higher quality Braxted Park Road, even with the priority bridge and the subsequent slow sweeping corners approaching Braxted Park, is a better route for Tiptree than coming off at Kelvedon, waiting an age sometimes to get round all the parked cars on the main road and the high street, then taking the slower B1023 and its narrow bridge at Inworth.Andrew_S_Hatton wrote: ↑Sat Aug 07, 2021 12:06 The issue is about the fact that many who use the Rivenhall End and Kelvedon junctions, which include folk as far away as Mersea Island and Tollesbury, both of which attract many visitors, in normal times, fear that the whole process of the widening and realigning will impact on them, particularly folk already concerned about poor provision of roads in Tiptree area exacerbated by much new residential development, with still more planned ever since the HGV limits were increased to whatver they are now (44tons?)
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Re: A12 Chelmsford to A120 Widening Scheme
A supplementary consultation is open. The changes are quite minor.
https://highwaysengland.citizenspace.co ... ion-nov21/
https://highwaysengland.citizenspace.co ... ion-nov21/
Re: A12 Chelmsford to A120 Widening Scheme
The same link but on webarchive: https://highwaysengland.citizenspace.co ... 20Nov4.pdf
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