Emergency Diversion Route oddities

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KeithW
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Re: Emergency Diversion Route oddities

Post by KeithW » Sun Oct 08, 2017 19:41

Stevie D wrote:
KeithW wrote:Now I know I need to make a right soon and just ahead is another roundabout with no signs at all WTF squared.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.53747 ... authuser=0
So you took an unsigned turn along a road that was too minor even to merit a junction sign, rather than following the main road straight ahead, and that's the sign's fault rather than yours? What about if you had just been following regular direction signs and they disappeared at a junction, would you chance a right-turn anyway?

The problem there is that a junction didn't have a permanent road sign. That is a problem in itself. The fact that the diversion signs were missing is a side effect of there being a regular sign missing. In your fantasy world where we have full-sized diversion signs with complete legends for every diversionary route, there would probably still have been the same signs missing, if not more.
There is no need to be insulting, my only fantasy was to believe I would see some helpful road signs, there were none. I was at a roundabout at which there there was no signage at all and looking at Streetview that has not changed. Given that I had just passed over the M61 on a flyover a right turn was hardly an unreasonable choice especially given I already had taken a left turn to successfully stay on the route. I agree that had there been a sign pointing to the A6 that would have worked but there was not. I would also point out that the whole point of diversion signs is to enable drivers WITHOUT local knowledge to get back on track.

You may consider this adequate signage for a diversionary route - I do not, which is why of course I carry a comprehensive road atlas.

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Stevie D
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Re: Emergency Diversion Route oddities

Post by Stevie D » Sun Oct 08, 2017 20:10

KeithW wrote:You may consider this adequate signage for a diversionary route - I do not, which is why of course I carry a comprehensive road atlas.
As I said, there was a sign missing. That certainly isn't ideal. But that isn't a problem with the diversionary route system, it's a problem with that implementation. Changing from a system of diversionary symbols to a system of full diversionary signage including destinations would almost certainly not have solved this issue, and is if anything likely to make it worse, as the cost of installing full permanent signage or storing and erecting full temporary signage at each and every junction is totally out of proportion and so you would see more junctions missed out, not fewer.

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Re: Emergency Diversion Route oddities

Post by SteveA30 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 21:08

storing and erecting full temporary signage at each and every junction is
exactly what is needed. They don't need specific destinations, as that means guessing where everyone is going. They just need the road number diverted from. These are detachable, I'm not sure how, sticky? Magnetic perhaps. M61 one night, M6 on another day. Just as the AA make up signs for one-off events, so HE makes them up for each diversion.

Implementation is just a matter of someone checking a route to make sure every junction is covered. Shouldn't really be necessary but, the teams out on the road can't always be trusted to get it right, as I've found on many occasions.
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Stevie D
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Re: Emergency Diversion Route oddities

Post by Stevie D » Sun Oct 08, 2017 22:54

SteveA30 wrote:Implementation is just a matter of someone checking a route to make sure every junction is covered. Shouldn't really be necessary but, the teams out on the road can't always be trusted to get it right, as I've found on many occasions.
I give up. If you're not going to pay any attention to cost, time, resources or, frankly, reality then there's no point in having a discussion about it.

ais523
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Re: Emergency Diversion Route oddities

Post by ais523 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 23:14

SteveA30 wrote:Implementation is just a matter of someone checking a route to make sure every junction is covered. Shouldn't really be necessary but, the teams out on the road can't always be trusted to get it right, as I've found on many occasions.
How is that going to help when the diversion is being used in an emergency?

Plenty of post incident bulletins talk about things like "we told traffic to use the solid circle diversion route", which can at present be done by flipping a single trigger sign when you reach the scene (and has even been done via VMS on occasion). Sending someone along heavily congested roads (because they're trying to handle an extra motorway's worth of traffic!) to put out temporary diversion signs would be very time-consuming and strongly delay how quickly the diversion was put in place.

(I note that putting up additional trestle signs with the road number on is something that's actually done in practice for diversions that are known about in advance, sometimes. For example, during the Catthorpe works, there were trestle signs for diversions around the M6 between J1 and the M1. That said, that particular works had very good diversion signage at least to the west of the M1, going so far as to put up a temporary yellow sign on a gantry; I didn't observe the situation to the east of the M1, so can't speak as to whether or not it was similarly good there.)

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Re: Emergency Diversion Route oddities

Post by KeithW » Mon Oct 09, 2017 00:15

Stevie D wrote:
KeithW wrote:You may consider this adequate signage for a diversionary route - I do not, which is why of course I carry a comprehensive road atlas.
As I said, there was a sign missing. That certainly isn't ideal. But that isn't a problem with the diversionary route system, it's a problem with that implementation. Changing from a system of diversionary symbols to a system of full diversionary signage including destinations would almost certainly not have solved this issue, and is if anything likely to make it worse, as the cost of installing full permanent signage or storing and erecting full temporary signage at each and every junction is totally out of proportion and so you would see more junctions missed out, not fewer.
Lets be clear. I was criticising the implementation and not the system. The idea is fine but it did NOT work because it was badly done and I am afraid this is not the only time I have hit this sort of problem. You can have the the most wonderful system in the world but if its badly implemented its not worth a brass farthing.

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Arcuarius
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Re: Emergency Diversion Route oddities

Post by Arcuarius » Mon Oct 09, 2017 08:41

Stevie D wrote:
KeithW wrote:Now I know I need to make a right soon and just ahead is another roundabout with no signs at all WTF squared.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.53747 ... authuser=0
So you took an unsigned turn along a road that was too minor even to merit a junction sign, rather than following the main road straight ahead, and that's the sign's fault rather than yours? What about if you had just been following regular direction signs and they disappeared at a junction, would you chance a right-turn anyway?

The problem there is that a junction didn't have a permanent road sign. That is a problem in itself. The fact that the diversion signs were missing is a side effect of there being a regular sign missing. In your fantasy world where we have full-sized diversion signs with complete legends for every diversionary route, there would probably still have been the same signs missing, if not more.
Anyone else would have correctly assumed straight on until told otherwise. Not all junctions are signed for this reason. You'll generally only be told where you need to take action.
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KeithW
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Re: Emergency Diversion Route oddities

Post by KeithW » Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:32

Arcuarius wrote: Anyone else would have correctly assumed straight on until told otherwise. Not all junctions are signed for this reason. You'll generally only be told where you need to take action.
At a roundabout with 3 exits you need to take action.

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zaax2
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Re: Emergency Diversion Route oddities

Post by zaax2 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 14:26

Who is responsable for these signs? As the A14 Bury St Edmunds seem to be missing one.

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Arcuarius
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Re: Emergency Diversion Route oddities

Post by Arcuarius » Thu Nov 16, 2017 07:54

zaax2 wrote:Who is responsable for these signs? As the A14 Bury St Edmunds seem to be missing one.
If it's on the A14 then it'd be Highways England. The EDRs around there left a bit to be desired, even when I worked on them back in the day...
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Re: Emergency Diversion Route oddities

Post by AndyB » Thu Nov 16, 2017 13:18

NI has a limited number of symbol diversions, mainly from M2 foreshore to M1 J7. What they do have at particular points (eg the Stockman's Lane end of Boucher Road) is a flap sign to switch between returning to the motorway and continuing to the next junction.

Earlier on, there was mention of more strategic diversions for long distance traffic. I think the solution is use VMS (especially MS4 or large MS3) at a suitable point to say "M6 closed J2-J4 Alt Route to XXXX follow []" - means no need to close additional junctions so local traffic can access as usual, but takes the pressure off the immediate diversion route.

ais523
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Re: Emergency Diversion Route oddities

Post by ais523 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 22:59

We have a new record for most emergency diversion route symbols on one sign; SteelCamel found a sign cluster with eight here at Brampton Hut. That sign wouldn't have existed at the time we last looked.

In other news, the trigger sign pointing onto the A441 southbound at M42 J2 finally got set back to the right position, I think in 2019 (may have been 2020); Google Street View confirms that it was wrong at some point in 2019 and correct at some point in 2020. (The "solid diamond, hollow circle" position is to reroute traffic away from M42 J2-1 when it's closed. It's supposed to show hollow triangle in most cases, allowing traffic to be routed from M42 J1-2 to M42 J3 via A-roads in case M42 J2-3 needs to be closed. Perhaps there was a closure of M42 J2-3 that caused someone to notice.) I remember it having been in the wrong position for a very long time; Google Street View shows that it had been in the wrong position since at least September 2008, and it may have been much longer. I feel somewhat sad about that; the incorrectly set trigger sign had become something of a personal landmark that I looked forward to whenever going on a long-distance trip (M42 J2 is my usual spot to enter the motorway system).

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Stevie D
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Re: Emergency Diversion Route oddities

Post by Stevie D » Fri Jan 22, 2021 00:37

ais523 wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 22:59
We have a new record for most emergency diversion route symbols on one sign; SteelCamel found a sign cluster with eight here at Brampton Hut. That sign wouldn't have existed at the time we last looked.
Intriguing ... what possible case can there be for 8 different diversionary routes coming through the same roundabout? Does anybody know what the full extent of those 8 routes is?

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