M6 Junction 19 'improvements'

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mikehindsonevans
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Re: M6 Junction 19 'improvements'

Post by mikehindsonevans »

Big L wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 18:00 The M6 through the junction has had the 50 limit removed; NSL restored.
Above the motorway, the junction is closed overnight every night until Christmas. "Over by Christmas"?
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Duple
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Re: M6 Junction 19 'improvements'

Post by Duple »

Interesting to note how much chaos this is causing, the ques last weekend to get off at Jnc 19 on the North slip were back to 18 almost, I'd be interested to see if these works actually have any benefit - a 3 level junction here would have solved all the problems but that's money.. and that's all been spent on test and trace :roll:
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wrinkly
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Re: M6 Junction 19 'improvements'

Post by wrinkly »

It seems the hamburger will open next Saturday morning:

https://nationalhighways.co.uk/our-work ... nction-19/
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jackal
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Re: M6 Junction 19 'improvements'

Post by jackal »

Duple wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 20:38 I'd be interested to see if these works actually have any benefit - a 3 level junction here would have solved all the problems but that's money..
At least the hamburger bridge is quite decent radius, and could be incorporated into a three-level junction, e.g.:

Image
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Truvelo
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Re: M6 Junction 19 'improvements'

Post by Truvelo »

I like the look of that which would be very similar to Catthorpe where the two missing turns aren't really that busy. Saying that however, there is a huge distance involved for traffic wanting to use these movements if they were abolished. Obviously the simple left turns from the M6 onto the A556 could be added relatively easily even though such turns without the reverse being possible seems to be frowned upon in this country. The right turns from A556 to the M6 would present more of a problem if an at-grade conflict with either the M6-A556 right turns or the high level A556 flyover can't be avoided.
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jackal
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Re: M6 Junction 19 'improvements'

Post by jackal »

Fair point. One pair of "missing" movements could be added at the A5033 bridge. Already those movements exist unofficially through the services.

The other pair of movements is not really required as it is provided via M6 J20 and the A50.
Last edited by jackal on Sun Nov 14, 2021 23:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Bryn666
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Re: M6 Junction 19 'improvements'

Post by Bryn666 »

Let's be honest though, this is one junction that does not require all this effort. The current design will be more than adequate to cope.

I'd rather we spent money fixing actual disaster junctions like the M60 J12-13 mixing bowl and Simister than demanding a set of free flow flyovers here.
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mikehindsonevans
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Re: M6 Junction 19 'improvements'

Post by mikehindsonevans »

Opened today. Coincidentally, we did a return trip into Altrincham today. Temporary traffic lights to be removed over the next fortnight.

I predict that the A556 northbound (towards Bowden) lane merges will see some spectacular shunts! Already seeing cars hammering up the outside lane then carving sharp left to leave at the first exit.

Oh, and the new traffic light management system will "take time to learn".

We shall be back in the new year.
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Barkstar
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Re: M6 Junction 19 'improvements'

Post by Barkstar »

Came through the new layout this evening off the northbound M6 heading over to the M56. Got green lights all the way so didn't get time to admire the new layout. White van man totally ignored the current 30mph limit. I wonder what the limit will be set at once it's all finished, not that the German executive barge drivers will take a deal of notice I'd imagine.
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Re: M6 Junction 19 'improvements'

Post by Bryn666 »

Barkstar wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 01:40 Came through the new layout this evening off the northbound M6 heading over to the M56. Got green lights all the way so didn't get time to admire the new layout. White van man totally ignored the current 30mph limit. I wonder what the limit will be set at once it's all finished, not that the German executive barge drivers will take a deal of notice I'd imagine.
I'd expect 40 given the alignment but 30 is entirely possible...
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avtur
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Re: M6 Junction 19 'improvements'

Post by avtur »

Traveled through the new north to east bound arrangement for the first time yesterday. It's a shame they couldn't have removed all lights on the link, but very much better than original layout .. IMHO
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Re: M6 Junction 19 'improvements'

Post by Bryn666 »

avtur wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 10:03 Traveled through the new north to east bound arrangement for the first time yesterday. It's a shame they couldn't have removed all lights on the link, but very much better than original layout .. IMHO
I was right about the 40 limit at least. What is amusing is they have placed tiny 600mm 40mph signs right in front of a gigantic 1200mm NSL for the end of variable speed limit. Does no-one do a site visit before they design anything these days? Left hand/right hand...
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KILLER KNIGHT
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Re: M6 Junction 19 'improvements'

Post by KILLER KNIGHT »

Bryn666 wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 10:06
avtur wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 10:03 Traveled through the new north to east bound arrangement for the first time yesterday. It's a shame they couldn't have removed all lights on the link, but very much better than original layout .. IMHO
I was right about the 40 limit at least. What is amusing is they have placed tiny 600mm 40mph signs right in front of a gigantic 1200mm NSL for the end of variable speed limit. Does no-one do a site visit before they design anything these days? Left hand/right hand...
That ‘Variable speed limit ENDS’ sign should have a 40mph speed limit too. That’s just stupid that it doesn't. The speed limit used to be 50mph. Don’t know how that was possible though.
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Re: M6 Junction 19 'improvements'

Post by Bryn666 »

KILLER KNIGHT wrote: Wed Oct 19, 2022 20:44
Bryn666 wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 10:06
avtur wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 10:03 Traveled through the new north to east bound arrangement for the first time yesterday. It's a shame they couldn't have removed all lights on the link, but very much better than original layout .. IMHO
I was right about the 40 limit at least. What is amusing is they have placed tiny 600mm 40mph signs right in front of a gigantic 1200mm NSL for the end of variable speed limit. Does no-one do a site visit before they design anything these days? Left hand/right hand...
That ‘Variable speed limit ENDS’ sign should have a 40mph speed limit too. That’s just stupid that it doesn't. The speed limit used to be 50mph. Don’t know how that was possible though.
They've removed the VSL End sign, but left the tiny 40 signs up. Another winner.
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KILLER KNIGHT
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Re: M6 Junction 19 'improvements'

Post by KILLER KNIGHT »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed Oct 19, 2022 20:58
KILLER KNIGHT wrote: Wed Oct 19, 2022 20:44
Bryn666 wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 10:06

I was right about the 40 limit at least. What is amusing is they have placed tiny 600mm 40mph signs right in front of a gigantic 1200mm NSL for the end of variable speed limit. Does no-one do a site visit before they design anything these days? Left hand/right hand...
That ‘Variable speed limit ENDS’ sign should have a 40mph speed limit too. That’s just stupid that it doesn't. The speed limit used to be 50mph. Don’t know how that was possible though.
They've removed the VSL End sign, but left the tiny 40 signs up. Another winner.
They were just supposed to change the NSL sign to 40mph sign :!: So silly.
KILLER KNIGHT
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Re: M6 Junction 19 'improvements'

Post by KILLER KNIGHT »

jackal wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 16:07
Duple wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 20:38 I'd be interested to see if these works actually have any benefit - a 3 level junction here would have solved all the problems but that's money..
At least the hamburger bridge is quite decent radius, and could be incorporated into a three-level junction, e.g.:

Image
When it’s needed, they should incorporate this and get rid of the roundabout. They should replace it with dedicated left turn lane in all four corners.
Duple
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Re: M6 Junction 19 'improvements'

Post by Duple »

KILLER KNIGHT wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 16:29
jackal wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 16:07
Duple wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 20:38 I'd be interested to see if these works actually have any benefit - a 3 level junction here would have solved all the problems but that's money..
At least the hamburger bridge is quite decent radius, and could be incorporated into a three-level junction, e.g.:

Image
When it’s needed, they should incorporate this and get rid of the roundabout. They should replace it with dedicated left turn lane in all four corners.
In the year 2043 when HS2 hasn't worked.. :D
Peter Freeman
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Re: M6 Junction 19 'improvements'

Post by Peter Freeman »

Note - the quotations are from a more recent topic, 'M6 Smart Motorway J18-J19 Queues', here-
viewtopic.php?p=1306974#p1306974
I've posted my reply here in this previous topic as a more appropriate location.

Peter Freeman wrote: But didn't we all see that the signalised double banana-burger design for this 'improvement' was ridiculous, even before it began? Two, or even just one, right-turn flyovers would have been far superior, and not significantly more expensive (if at all).
Bomag wrote: Thu Aug 17, 2023 16:40
Peter Freeman wrote: Thu Aug 17, 2023 11:53
Bomag wrote: Sat Aug 12, 2023 23:29 There was simply not enough space on the A556 north and south bound exits to have a free flow link going over the circulatory carriageway with full headroom. The approaches would have to be the equivalent of four lanes wide in each direction to provide the same capacity, taking out an underpass, several farms, a pub and a petrol station. Any scheme had to be within the existing land take.
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I am not certain what the first point is supposed to mean, was it saying that we should wipe out multiple building for no good reason?
No. The meaning of my point is that NH had insufficient creative imagination or open mind to look beyound the end of their nose.

If we restrict the requirement to creating a third level flyover for only the most important right turn (M6 n-bound to A556 ne-bound), there is obviously ample room. Where does the 'four lanes wide' stuff come from? Also: within the existing land-take? Probably yes. If not, then very little extra.

With that movement fully removed from the second level, relief greater than by the double-banana-burger (DBB) would have been achieved. What's more, you could still have the banana-bend cut-through for the other (M6 s-bound) right turn (where building demolition otherwise would be required) if you insisted. Whether that would be beneficial is debatable - some Sabre members expressed the view at the time that J19 congestion was not as serious as claimed, and my observations via Google Maps typical suggested the same.

To go further, my opinion is that a 3-level interchange is probably not required in any case, but the appropriate 2-level project would have converted the roundabout to a SPUI/SPD. If you look at the vertical view of the now-completed DBB, you will see that it resembles one-third of a SPUI. It would need (a) a complementary DBB for the other two right turns, and (b) an A556 direct pass-through. These could both be super-imposed onto the first DBB to form a complete SPUI. The only required additional structures would be for a few more of those wide concrete bridging 'planks' to be laid. The superfluous roundabout bridges would then be either demolished or re-purposed for NMU links.

A simple way to put this is that construction of a DBB or conversion to a SPUI each require a platform to be created in the centre of the roundabout. The effort and cost is the same in either case. There is no doubt, from international experience, that a SPUI greatly out-performs a hamburgered roundabout. And all is not lost - my SPUI suggestion could be easily achieved even now. Whether it is justified is another matter.
AnOrdinarySABREUser
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Re: M6 Junction 19 'improvements'

Post by AnOrdinarySABREUser »

If full grade separation is required in the future, another flyover over the top of the existing roundabout wouldn't be necessary. A partially unrolled cloverleaf could be built instead with new local roads being built to serve the B5391. Demolition would be minimal and four new bridges would need to built at the minimum (2 for the motorway links, 2 for the LAR links) and the A556 mainline would reuse the double banana bridge over the M6. The M6 mainline is about 34m wide with three lanes in each direction and a hard shoulder, whilst the carriageway width of the double banana bridge is 56 m wide, which would leave plenty of room for the A556 to be widened over the M6 also. This upgrade would also facilitate the dualling of the A556 to the south towards Northwich. This might also allow the A556 to be upgraded to a motorway.
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