Third Menai Crossing (consultation)

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ForestChav
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Re: Menai Straits Crossing - what's needed?

Post by ForestChav »

Surely we do have redundancy as we have both the A5 and A55.

Though, especially in the latter case, it is a weak link on the route as a whole being dualled on either side. The ideal solution would be a new bridge carrying a dual carriageway A55, keeping the Menai Bridge for the A5 and probably restoring the Britannia Bridge to rail freight, but that's no doubt going to cost a lot.
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Re: Menai Straits Crossing - what's needed?

Post by Chris5156 »

Re-marking the Britannia Bridge for three lanes and operating a tidal flow system is one option, but while the carriageway is quite wide it's not wide enough for three standard width lanes, so you'd have to settle for three very narrow lanes.
ForestChav wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 22:33Surely we do have redundancy as we have both the A5 and A55.
Only for vehicles lower than 4.7m/15'6" and narrower than 2.6m/8'6".
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Re: Menai Straits Crossing - what's needed?

Post by Bryn666 »

Chris5156 wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 23:12 Re-marking the Britannia Bridge for three lanes and operating a tidal flow system is one option, but while the carriageway is quite wide it's not wide enough for three standard width lanes, so you'd have to settle for three very narrow lanes.
ForestChav wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 22:33Surely we do have redundancy as we have both the A5 and A55.
Only for vehicles lower than 4.7m/15'6" and narrower than 2.6m/8'6".
I think the tidal flow fix would end up with the reversible lane being restricted to cars only which probably doesn't solve the HGV flow issues.

However, whilst there are queues approaching the bridge they are never horrific to the extent it is impossible to get across and are there worse parts of the Welsh network that are more deserving - things like the most dire bits of the A470 which are still single track? This carries less traffic but the strategic value is huge.
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Re: Menai Straits Crossing - what's needed?

Post by Nathan_A_RF »

A tidal system was dismissed by the Welsh Government, perhaps for the reason Bryn mentions.

Ideally I'd also like to see a brand new crossing and the Britannia Bridge restored to its former innovative design with those large wrought iron tubes. Trouble is a new crossing might spoil the view of the two existing bridges.
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Re: Menai Straits Crossing - what's needed?

Post by skiddaw05 »

Nathan_A_RF wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:15 Trouble is a new crossing might spoil the view of the two existing bridges.
Not if it was a tunnel ;)
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Re: Menai Straits Crossing - what's needed?

Post by c2R »

I suspect a tunnel across the strait would be... Challenging!
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Re: Menai Straits Crossing - what's needed?

Post by SouthWest Philip »

Maybe build an identical bridge alongside the existing one, to maintain the aesthetic appearance (at least from a distance), and then both the road and railway could be dualled?
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Re: Menai Straits Crossing - what's needed?

Post by ForestChav »

Nathan_A_RF wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:15 A tidal system was dismissed by the Welsh Government, perhaps for the reason Bryn mentions.

Ideally I'd also like to see a brand new crossing and the Britannia Bridge restored to its former innovative design with those large wrought iron tubes. Trouble is a new crossing might spoil the view of the two existing bridges.
Other than for reasons of restoration, I'm not sure I would. If you look at the reason why the wrought iron tubes are no longer there, that should be sufficient to suggest why putting them back may not be the best idea. If a car or train or whatever did catch fire in there, then it would be much harder to access it safely, compared to a more open-air situation.

If they did build a new road bridge though, it would allow it to go back to being a rail bridge.

Not really sure how much more challenging a tunnel would be than anywhere else, given that you'd still have to lose the height of the land somehow, but then, they are reasonably challenging compared to a bridge.
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Re: Menai Straits Crossing - what's needed?

Post by Motorman »

SouthWest Philip wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:34 Maybe build an identical bridge alongside the existing one, to maintain the aesthetic appearance (at least from a distance), and then both the road and railway could be dualled?
You do not need a new bridge to restore the railway to double track, the rebuilt Britannia Bridge has provision for two tracks, but BR decided it only needed one.
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Re: Menai Straits Crossing - what's needed?

Post by Isleworth1961 »

ForestChav wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:38 Other than for reasons of restoration, I'm not sure I would. If you look at the reason why the wrought iron tubes are no longer there, that should be sufficient to suggest why putting them back may not be the best idea. If a car or train or whatever did catch fire in there, then it would be much harder to access it safely, compared to a more open-air situation.
Though it managed to survive steam trains for almost 120 years, so I can't see tubes being a problem with modern trains. But no, it's not going to happen.
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Re: Menai Straits Crossing - what's needed?

Post by Bryn666 »

The tubular bridge was absolutely dog ugly, the modern arch and road deck looks absolutely graceful in comparison.

What I would like though is for the lion heads to be moved somewhere more promiment.
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Re: Menai Straits Crossing - what's needed?

Post by JammyDodge »

SouthWest Philip wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:34 Maybe build an identical bridge alongside the existing one, to maintain the aesthetic appearance (at least from a distance), and then both the road and railway could be dualled?
Or build something modern and elegant, as with the Forth bridges
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Re: Menai Straits Crossing - what's needed?

Post by Vierwielen »

JammyDodge wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 16:30
SouthWest Philip wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:34 Maybe build an identical bridge alongside the existing one, to maintain the aesthetic appearance (at least from a distance), and then both the road and railway could be dualled?
Or build something modern and elegant, as with the Forth bridges
The Forth bridges are about 1000 metres in length; the Menai Straits are about 300 metres.
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Re: Menai Straits Crossing - what's needed?

Post by Rillington »

ForestChav wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 22:33 The ideal solution would be a new bridge carrying a dual carriageway A55, keeping the Menai Bridge for the A5 and probably restoring the Britannia Bridge to rail freight, but that's no doubt going to cost a lot.
I'd agree with that - a new bridge to allow two lanes each way would be the solution i'd go for, running parallel to The Britannia Bridge.

If this was to happen, what might become of the road deck on the Britannia Bridge?
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Re: Menai Straits Crossing - what's needed?

Post by ForestChav »

Rillington wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 18:48
ForestChav wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 22:33 The ideal solution would be a new bridge carrying a dual carriageway A55, keeping the Menai Bridge for the A5 and probably restoring the Britannia Bridge to rail freight, but that's no doubt going to cost a lot.
I'd agree with that - a new bridge to allow two lanes each way would be the solution i'd go for, running parallel to The Britannia Bridge.

If this was to happen, what might become of the road deck on the Britannia Bridge?
Keep it as it is in case the new bridge needed to be closed?
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Re: Menai Straits Crossing - what's needed?

Post by Rillington »

Yes but I'm talking about what its primary purpose would be if a new bridge carrying the A55 was built alongside the Britannia Bridge.
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Re: Menai Straits Crossing - what's needed?

Post by RichardA35 »

OK I've now seen the issue which is dual carriageway either side and single carriageway across the bridge. (I haven't been this way for 45 years is my excuse)
My quick pass of options to address - modify existing bridge or build new crossing.
Modify existing bridge -
a) New deck above existing
b) remove piers above deck level, cantilever steelwork either side and widen deck to provide 4 lanes.
In both the appearance of the structure will be markedly different but then it was for the early part of its life.
c) short term fix of tidal flow as noted earlier
New crossing -
Decide bridge or tunnel -
Find optimal position and construct.
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Re: Menai Straits Crossing - what's needed?

Post by Vierwielen »

RichardA35 wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 20:04 OK I've now seen the issue which is dual carriageway either side and single carriageway across the bridge. (I haven't been this way for 45 years is my excuse)
My quick pass of options to address - modify existing bridge or build new crossing.
Modify existing bridge -
a) New deck above existing
b) remove piers above deck level, cantilever steelwork either side and widen deck to provide 4 lanes.
In both the appearance of the structure will be markedly different but then it was for the early part of its life.
c) short term fix of tidal flow as noted earlier
New crossing -
Decide bridge or tunnel -
Find optimal position and construct.
You missed a step - the last line should read "Find optimal position and funds and construct". Prior to BREXIT, this might have been easier as the bridge would be part of a major route linking two EU countries.
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Re: Menai Straits Crossing - what's needed?

Post by Chris_533976 »

This has always been my solution. Maybe a bit pricy.

Build a COMPLETELY IDENTICAL LOOKING bridge right next to it. Match it as perfectly as possible. Build it to modern standards, of course.

Run eastbound traffic on one bridge, westbound on the other.

There you go. No problem with it effecting the look of the old bridge and the area.
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Re: Menai Straits Crossing - what's needed?

Post by ForestChav »

Rillington wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 18:50 Yes but I'm talking about what its primary purpose would be if a new bridge carrying the A55 was built alongside the Britannia Bridge.
Well it'd still have the rail deck, but if you built a new D2 alongside it you wouldn't need it to carry any traffic. You'd have Telford's bridge for the scenic/light traffic and any long distance traffic and freight would use the new bridge. So you would have it as contingency and nothing more. Keep the tie-ins in case it's needed but nothing else. What else would anyone do with it?
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