Oxford to Cambridge expressway

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marconaf
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by marconaf »

Phil wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 19:29
Scratchwood wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 18:47
It doesn't stop road improvements being needed or indeed electorally popular in the area if it wasn't connected with lots of housebuilding...

I suspect the pressure for some sort of improvement will eventually return
Indeed so - but that option isn't on the table and would need a reversal of two decades of Government policy that all development is essential for the country economic well-being. While it would be nice to think that such policies will eventually come to an end, the reality is in a low tax, low regulation, free market economy parties are not going to do that - too many vested interests to protect....

Given the choice of no housing but no road or new roads plus thousands of houses most residents of the Chilterns / Vale of Aylesbury are going to pick the latter.
Not sure about that, I live in that area and it’s already seen huge new housing so the demand for more and losing more countryside and more pressure on local schools, hospitals and so on is unlikely to be popular even if a road comes with it.

As Ive said before, I think the road, the railway and all other infra are justifiable on a “2-3 MKs” being built across the region (eg Winslow), but the locals will hate that!

The other issue is local connectivity, not much point having the expressway as it was mooted unless the routes to/from it are upgraded, eg A41 bypass of Aylesbury (ideally running west adjacent to HS2) amongst many others. There was no indication any of that would happen.

As for where we go now, well, I dont know, a strategic route is needed through there, and piecemeal upgrades to the A421 dont seem to solve the problem as that diverts to the North when the axis is really SW-NE from south of Oxford to Bedford and beyond. Solving inside MK is probably impossible. Driving that part of the route most traffic turns on/off, so I dont think the A421 is a medium-long distance axis now anyway.

We also have the issue of the A34 itself, grossly overloaded around Oxford with other safety and health issues too, with Oxford’s bypasses barely deserving that name (more distributors now), and like the upper M11, it suffers very badly from HGVs and rolling hills greatly sapping nominal capacity on the section to the M4. From there to the M3 it seems ok ish bar joining the M3 although that seems to be planned to be sorted.

All in all its northern half needs an A34(M) upgrade to D3, similar to the new bits of the A14. That cant be done near Oxford so what next?

We then have also the massively overloaded western M25 which this expressway would have alleviated indirectly (my SW to N/E journeys are a toss up of M3/M25 or A34 and cross counrry. If we do nothing what happens there?

In the last 10 years I’ve driven the M3-M11 section regularly, congestion used to disappear northbound between the M4 and M1 but now extends to the M40 and often the M1. That’s not the local traffic that party clogs M3-M4 section as its mostly longer distance stuff.

So disappointing, not least that we just cannot do strategic projects in this country. I spent a lot of time in the Nevada/California area in recent years and their plans to extend the I-11 to create a new strategic Mexico-US-Canada route are how to do it. They dont seem to need to justify it on developing the life out of everywhere en route and neither do they get stuck on what is essentially petty envy of one region against another - they just see an opporunity and are going for it.
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JammyDodge
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by JammyDodge »

marconaf wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:28
Phil wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 19:29
Scratchwood wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 18:47
It doesn't stop road improvements being needed or indeed electorally popular in the area if it wasn't connected with lots of housebuilding...

I suspect the pressure for some sort of improvement will eventually return
Indeed so - but that option isn't on the table and would need a reversal of two decades of Government policy that all development is essential for the country economic well-being. While it would be nice to think that such policies will eventually come to an end, the reality is in a low tax, low regulation, free market economy parties are not going to do that - too many vested interests to protect....

Given the choice of no housing but no road or new roads plus thousands of houses most residents of the Chilterns / Vale of Aylesbury are going to pick the latter.
Not sure about that, I live in that area and it’s already seen huge new housing so the demand for more and losing more countryside and more pressure on local schools, hospitals and so on is unlikely to be popular even if a road comes with it.

As Ive said before, I think the road, the railway and all other infra are justifiable on a “2-3 MKs” being built across the region (eg Winslow), but the locals will hate that!

The other issue is local connectivity, not much point having the expressway as it was mooted unless the routes to/from it are upgraded, eg A41 bypass of Aylesbury (ideally running west adjacent to HS2) amongst many others. There was no indication any of that would happen.

As for where we go now, well, I dont know, a strategic route is needed through there, and piecemeal upgrades to the A421 dont seem to solve the problem as that diverts to the North when the axis is really SW-NE from south of Oxford to Bedford and beyond. Solving inside MK is probably impossible. Driving that part of the route most traffic turns on/off, so I dont think the A421 is a medium-long distance axis now anyway.

We also have the issue of the A34 itself, grossly overloaded around Oxford with other safety and health issues too, with Oxford’s bypasses barely deserving that name (more distributors now), and like the upper M11, it suffers very badly from HGVs and rolling hills greatly sapping nominal capacity on the section to the M4. From there to the M3 it seems ok ish bar joining the M3 although that seems to be planned to be sorted.

All in all its northern half needs an A34(M) upgrade to D3, similar to the new bits of the A14. That cant be done near Oxford so what next?

We then have also the massively overloaded western M25 which this expressway would have alleviated indirectly (my SW to N/E journeys are a toss up of M3/M25 or A34 and cross counrry. If we do nothing what happens there?

In the last 10 years I’ve driven the M3-M11 section regularly, congestion used to disappear northbound between the M4 and M1 but now extends to the M40 and often the M1. That’s not the local traffic that party clogs M3-M4 section as its mostly longer distance stuff.

So disappointing, not least that we just cannot do strategic projects in this country. I spent a lot of time in the Nevada/California area in recent years and their plans to extend the I-11 to create a new strategic Mexico-US-Canada route are how to do it. They dont seem to need to justify it on developing the life out of everywhere en route and neither do they get stuck on what is essentially petty envy of one region against another - they just see an opporunity and are going for it.
With the A34 around Oxford, there are 3 options:
Western bypass
Eastern Bypass
Widening of the existing route

Widening the existing route is a non-starter
Arguably, an Eastern bypass is the better option, due to it being a less developed route, and allowing for a quicker connection to the M40, reducing the future weaving issues between J9-10. This would also provide relief to the existing Eastern Bypass in Oxford.
A J8B would not really be optimal, so combining J8 and J8A into one with a stackabout here for full access to the A40, while providing full free-flow links between The A34(Eastern Bypass) and the M40.
M40 J8.jpg
Excuse the quick drawing
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marconaf
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by marconaf »

JammyDodge wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:55
With the A34 around Oxford, there are 3 options:
Western bypass
Eastern Bypass
Widening of the existing route

Widening the existing route is a non-starter
Arguably, an Eastern bypass is the better option, due to it being a less developed route, and allowing for a quicker connection to the M40, reducing the future weaving issues between J9-10. This would also provide relief to the existing Eastern Bypass in Oxford.
A J8B would not really be optimal, so combining J8 and J8A into one with a stackabout here for full access to the A40, while providing full free-flow links between The A34(Eastern Bypass) and the M40.
M40 J8.jpg
Excuse the quick drawing
It does seem south and east of Oxford is the best option in terms of space, allowing the extant A34 to the M40 to be purely for Birmingham & NW direction traffic (although still overloaded?)

But taking it just to the M40 in the East doesnt really solve anything? Nobody is going to drive East around Oxford if their target is NW of it surely?

I suppose to miss the eastern M4 and part of the M25 some might come up the A34 then go down the M40 (and vica versa) but thats almost two sides of the triangle if they are heading North (M1 corridor) or further East.

It seems a lot of expense (money and politics) to put a bypass (of a bypass) in which I cant see what its supporting?

A strategic corridor as the expressway was to cut across to the A421/8 axis, linking direct to the M1 and thus A1 etc as well as east of them makes a lot of sense, but as a piecemeal project what justifies this?


Which takes one back to lets just upgrade the existing A34 corridor to the west, obliterating houses/streets to do full D3/4 then freeflow onto M40, with A43 made fully freeflow also. Doesnt give the Cambridge arc but does solve the A34 at less cost (?) than an all new road to the south and east and does improve cross country route.
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ChrisH
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by ChrisH »

marconaf wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 14:27 Which takes one back to lets just upgrade the existing A34 corridor to the west, obliterating houses/streets to do full D3/4 then freeflow onto M40, with A43 made fully freeflow also. Doesnt give the Cambridge arc but does solve the A34 at less cost (?) than an all new road to the south and east and does improve cross country route.
I think this N-S corridor upgrade would make some sense, but there are a number of sort-of decent routes from the A34 to the North, via either A43, A46/M69 or M42/A42. Conversely, the east-west arc (and the resilience of the M25 NW section) currently has no decent route from M4/M40 across towards the M1 and East Anglia. I agree with other posters that a series of piecemeal improvements between Bicester and M1 J13 would suffice, or at least be a wedge to improve on later. The MK southern bypass is currently safeguarded I believe, but how long will that last before being carpeted in greenfield housing?
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JohnnyMo
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by JohnnyMo »

Phil wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 19:29
Given the choice of no housing but no road or new roads plus thousands of houses most residents of the Chilterns / Vale of Aylesbury are going to pick the latter.
I would have assumed the former, most home owners seem to be apposed to any new housing development anywhere near them.
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marconaf
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by marconaf »

ChrisH wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 15:22
marconaf wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 14:27 Which takes one back to lets just upgrade the existing A34 corridor to the west, obliterating houses/streets to do full D3/4 then freeflow onto M40, with A43 made fully freeflow also. Doesnt give the Cambridge arc but does solve the A34 at less cost (?) than an all new road to the south and east and does improve cross country route.
I think this N-S corridor upgrade would make some sense, but there are a number of sort-of decent routes from the A34 to the North, via either A43, A46/M69 or M42/A42. Conversely, the east-west arc (and the resilience of the M25 NW section) currently has no decent route from M4/M40 across towards the M1 and East Anglia. I agree with other posters that a series of piecemeal improvements between Bicester and M1 J13 would suffice, or at least be a wedge to improve on later. The MK southern bypass is currently safeguarded I believe, but how long will that last before being carpeted in greenfield housing?
I agree there are already options in that direction, although the A43 really should be fully grade separated.

Ref via Bicester and the A421, I think that’ll just make the A34 as is much worse if it funnels M1/Bedford traffic onto it.

I suspect what will actually happen is zero as the Expressway will just lurk in the background anyway.

Even a Bicester to MK upgrade comes with a need to link around both, its just not feasible to put more traffic through them. Plus this all still leaves west of Oxford in the current mess.

One keeps coming back to the Expressway Idea, and taking advantage of the realtively low density living in the area to do some new towns and build on the road and rail investment.

It really does feel like a strategic plan is needed here, not some piecemeal upgrades.

The A14 was such a thing, for what actually was a better route than exists here.

Perhaps the Stonehenge money can sort this out, substantially more benefit and not penalising the North!
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jackal
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by jackal »

Some route maps - or rather snippets of route maps - for the cancelled road were published in response to an FOI request.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ay-project

They show the expressway running parallel to the M40 north of J8a. I suspect they'd really have used a widened or ALRed multiplex as the M40 has less traffic on this section.
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