Oxford to Cambridge expressway

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Phil
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by Phil »

roadtester wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 08:55
To be fair, our estuary crossings are pretty impressive - Severn x2, Humber, Thames, Forth x 2, but we seem to go all timid about engineering structures once we go inland.
Not the same thing - France has plenty of impressive Estuary crossings too.

Unlike the UK however they are not adverse to building tunnels (even S2 ones and many of them are surprisingly simple in terms of H&S provision despite them being required to operate under the same EU standards as we did until last year), big inland viaducts, single carriageway GSJs plus they seem to have a policy of having diverse routes rather than the 'lump everything on a few overcrowded strategic routes' beloved by HE.
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Jonathan B4027
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

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Micro The Maniac wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:24
KeithW wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:51 That it is now is in no small measure down to the wave of protest that followed the decision to build a monstrous cutting for the M3 across Twyford Down.
I think we should add the equally monstrous M40 Aston Rowant cutting (J5-J6) to that, although that was 20 years earlier
As someone that lived fairly close to the cutting for a couple a decades, it is quite well designed I think, you don't really know you are on top of it until you get to it due to its curve, especially from the East. The sides have certainly mellowed over the years.
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by Bryn666 »

Jonathan B4027 wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 08:14
Micro The Maniac wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:24
KeithW wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:51 That it is now is in no small measure down to the wave of protest that followed the decision to build a monstrous cutting for the M3 across Twyford Down.
I think we should add the equally monstrous M40 Aston Rowant cutting (J5-J6) to that, although that was 20 years earlier
As someone that lived fairly close to the cutting for a couple a decades, it is quite well designed I think, you don't really know you are on top of it until you get to it due to its curve, especially from the East. The sides have certainly mellowed over the years.
It is the sort of cutting that would probably be a tunnel if done today - see the A505 for an example, which was odd as they excavated the hill, built two boxes, and then put the hill back rather than just bored through the hill. I'm guessing there were sound geotechnical reasons, such as the hill being a borrow pit for instance, but I didn't follow the story of the Baldock Bypass so much.
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wrinkly
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

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Another surprise is that one or both of the 1930s (now eastbound) A55 tunnels at Pen-y-Clip were actually cut-and-cover.
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by KeithW »

Bryn666 wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 09:57
Jonathan B4027 wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 08:14
Micro The Maniac wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:24
I think we should add the equally monstrous M40 Aston Rowant cutting (J5-J6) to that, although that was 20 years earlier
As someone that lived fairly close to the cutting for a couple a decades, it is quite well designed I think, you don't really know you are on top of it until you get to it due to its curve, especially from the East. The sides have certainly mellowed over the years.
It is the sort of cutting that would probably be a tunnel if done today - see the A505 for an example, which was odd as they excavated the hill, built two boxes, and then put the hill back rather than just bored through the hill. I'm guessing there were sound geotechnical reasons, such as the hill being a borrow pit for instance, but I didn't follow the story of the Baldock Bypass so much.
The earth covering is not very deep and the tunnel is relatively short so it was almost certainly the quickest and cheapest way.
See picture at
http://www.bbc.co.uk/threecounties/cont ... ry.shtml?7

The video links dont work
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by Bryn666 »

KeithW wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:22
Bryn666 wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 09:57
Jonathan B4027 wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 08:14
As someone that lived fairly close to the cutting for a couple a decades, it is quite well designed I think, you don't really know you are on top of it until you get to it due to its curve, especially from the East. The sides have certainly mellowed over the years.
It is the sort of cutting that would probably be a tunnel if done today - see the A505 for an example, which was odd as they excavated the hill, built two boxes, and then put the hill back rather than just bored through the hill. I'm guessing there were sound geotechnical reasons, such as the hill being a borrow pit for instance, but I didn't follow the story of the Baldock Bypass so much.
The earth covering is not very deep and the tunnel is relatively short so it was almost certainly the quickest and cheapest way.
See picture at
http://www.bbc.co.uk/threecounties/cont ... ry.shtml?7

The video links dont work
Makes sense, and it has avoided a massive scar on the landscape. Thanks for clearing up.
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by Scratchwood »

Jonathan B4027 wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 08:14
Micro The Maniac wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:24
KeithW wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:51 That it is now is in no small measure down to the wave of protest that followed the decision to build a monstrous cutting for the M3 across Twyford Down.
I think we should add the equally monstrous M40 Aston Rowant cutting (J5-J6) to that, although that was 20 years earlier
As someone that lived fairly close to the cutting for a couple a decades, it is quite well designed I think, you don't really know you are on top of it until you get to it due to its curve, especially from the East. The sides have certainly mellowed over the years.
To me it's still a massive eyesore, and it splits apart the two sides of the Aston Rowant nature reserve
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by jackal »

Bryn666 wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 09:57
Jonathan B4027 wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 08:14
Micro The Maniac wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:24
I think we should add the equally monstrous M40 Aston Rowant cutting (J5-J6) to that, although that was 20 years earlier
As someone that lived fairly close to the cutting for a couple a decades, it is quite well designed I think, you don't really know you are on top of it until you get to it due to its curve, especially from the East. The sides have certainly mellowed over the years.
It is the sort of cutting that would probably be a tunnel if done today - see the A505 for an example, which was odd as they excavated the hill, built two boxes, and then put the hill back rather than just bored through the hill. I'm guessing there were sound geotechnical reasons, such as the hill being a borrow pit for instance, but I didn't follow the story of the Baldock Bypass so much.
Road tunnels* are still very unusual. Here is a list of those opened in the last 20 years:

Hindhead Tunnel, 1830m, 2011
Tyne Tunnel (eastern bore), 1600m, 2011
Heathrow ART, 1420m, 2005
A505 Weston Hills Tunnel, 230m, 2006

Any more?

For any serious length a cutting is almost always used, as notably on the A417 Air Balloon.

The big growth area is <150m tunnel-like underpasses or green bridges (as on the A299 Hengist Way and current A57 and A303 schemes) that don't need all the safety gubbins.

*Must be at least 150m, as per DMRB newspeak.
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by Peter Freeman »

Micro The Maniac wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:24
KeithW wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:51 That it is now is in no small measure down to the wave of protest that followed the decision to build a monstrous cutting for the M3 across Twyford Down.
I think we should add the equally monstrous M40 Aston Rowant cutting (J5-J6) to that, although that was 20 years earlier
Am I the only one who can't see what's so bad about these two road cuttings? Monstrous? They seem perfectly sensible and acceptable to me. Quite interesting engineering features.
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Patrick Harper
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by Patrick Harper »

Peter Freeman wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 13:59
Micro The Maniac wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:24
KeithW wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:51 That it is now is in no small measure down to the wave of protest that followed the decision to build a monstrous cutting for the M3 across Twyford Down.
I think we should add the equally monstrous M40 Aston Rowant cutting (J5-J6) to that, although that was 20 years earlier
Am I the only one who can't see what's so bad about these two road cuttings? Monstrous? They seem perfectly sensible and acceptable to me. Quite interesting engineering features.
The environmental argument against them is that the excavations alone are very carbon intensive.
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jackal
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by jackal »

Patrick Harper wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 14:54
Peter Freeman wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 13:59
Micro The Maniac wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:24
I think we should add the equally monstrous M40 Aston Rowant cutting (J5-J6) to that, although that was 20 years earlier
Am I the only one who can't see what's so bad about these two road cuttings? Monstrous? They seem perfectly sensible and acceptable to me. Quite interesting engineering features.
The environmental argument against them is that the excavations alone are very carbon intensive.
Didn't the protesters prefer a tunnel in the case of Twyford, which presumably would have higher emissions than a cutting given the volumes of concrete required?
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

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Peter Freeman wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 13:59
Micro The Maniac wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:24
KeithW wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:51 That it is now is in no small measure down to the wave of protest that followed the decision to build a monstrous cutting for the M3 across Twyford Down.
I think we should add the equally monstrous M40 Aston Rowant cutting (J5-J6) to that, although that was 20 years earlier
Am I the only one who can't see what's so bad about these two road cuttings? Monstrous? They seem perfectly sensible and acceptable to me. Quite interesting engineering features.
They have both healed and greened very well over the years so the scar in the landscape is far less obvious than when they were being built/shortly after they opened.
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Patrick Harper
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

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jackal wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 15:02
Patrick Harper wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 14:54
Peter Freeman wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 13:59
Am I the only one who can't see what's so bad about these two road cuttings? Monstrous? They seem perfectly sensible and acceptable to me. Quite interesting engineering features.
The environmental argument against them is that the excavations alone are very carbon intensive.
Didn't the protesters prefer a tunnel in the case of Twyford, which presumably would have higher emissions than a cutting given the volumes of concrete required?
Pretty sure they wanted nothing at all, as in maintain the 1992 traffic situation around Winchester.
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by Herned »

jackal wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 15:02 Didn't the protesters prefer a tunnel in the case of Twyford, which presumably would have higher emissions than a cutting given the volumes of concrete required?
Yes, definitely. I can remember seeing a very dubious mock-up on the news, released by the DoT of what it would look like as a tunnel: it gave the appearance that it would be half the height of the cutting. They said it would be just as scarring as the cutting, and that was their main argument against a tunnel (apart from money, obviously)
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

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Patrick Harper wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 15:54
jackal wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 15:02
Patrick Harper wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 14:54 The environmental argument against them is that the excavations alone are very carbon intensive.
Didn't the protesters prefer a tunnel in the case of Twyford, which presumably would have higher emissions than a cutting given the volumes of concrete required?
Pretty sure they wanted nothing at all, as in maintain the 1992 traffic situation around Winchester.
Quite, if they’d tried to put a railway line in through a tunnel instead of the M3 in a cutting, swampy et al would still have done what they did.

The M40 cutting is quite stunning in terms of the views it gives drivers of the area as the summit it, as are the M62 sections. The M3 one never really gets close and a Hindhead style tunnel does feel it would have been a much better choice long term.
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

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Herned wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 16:54
jackal wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 15:02 Didn't the protesters prefer a tunnel in the case of Twyford, which presumably would have higher emissions than a cutting given the volumes of concrete required?
Yes, definitely. I can remember seeing a very dubious mock-up on the news, released by the DoT of what it would look like as a tunnel: it gave the appearance that it would be half the height of the cutting. They said it would be just as scarring as the cutting, and that was their main argument against a tunnel (apart from money, obviously)
Here's a photo at IMS Vintage Photos captioned "Twyford Down protesters holding a Poster":

Image

People imagine that environmental protests were always about climate change because that's the dominant framing nowadays, but that was much more niche in the 80s to early 90s, and the science new and uncertain. I'm pretty sure the main concern was, as your recollection suggests, local environmental damage.
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by Bryn666 »

Indeed, whilst global warming was still a concern most of the opposition to Twyford was on amenity grounds.

Even the most hardcore anti-roads person knew the old Winchester Bypass was a disaster and had to be fixed somehow.
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by Phil »

jackal wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 15:02
Patrick Harper wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 14:54
Peter Freeman wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 13:59
Am I the only one who can't see what's so bad about these two road cuttings? Monstrous? They seem perfectly sensible and acceptable to me. Quite interesting engineering features.
The environmental argument against them is that the excavations alone are very carbon intensive.
Didn't the protesters prefer a tunnel in the case of Twyford, which presumably would have higher emissions than a cutting given the volumes of concrete required?
What you need to remember about Twyford down was it wasn't just environmentalists that were protesting!

The reason why Twyford down marks a pivotal change in Government attitudes to road building is the fact that over half of those protesting were if fact middle income, car owning, Conservative supporting folk.

In previous years such an important voting grouping would have stayed silent or even backed the cutting plan as 'not wasting taxpayers cash on unnecessary features' while he principle objectors would be classed as folk who wouldn't vote Conservative anyway so pushing through road schemes which alienated them wasn't seen as a problem.

So although a tunnel might well have been more 'environmentally damaging' in terms of carbon emissions etc, it would have satisfied the majority of protesters and prevented road building being quite the poisoned chalice it became in the years that followed.
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by Phil »

Patrick Harper wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 15:54
jackal wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 15:02
Patrick Harper wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 14:54 The environmental argument against them is that the excavations alone are very carbon intensive.
Didn't the protesters prefer a tunnel in the case of Twyford, which presumably would have higher emissions than a cutting given the volumes of concrete required?
Pretty sure they wanted nothing at all, as in maintain the 1992 traffic situation around Winchester.
Not so!

The residents of Winchester (and the surrounding area) definitely wanted an end to queues on the A33 by-pass and were not 'anti-road' per say - indeed many had never been involved in protest action before and from a demographic aspect were from the middle income, car owning, conservative supporting demographic typical of Hampshire.

What they did object to was a stonking great cutting damaging the landscape and were not afraid to protest to make their feelings known. Fatally for road building the Government opted to rough it out and force through their plans , an action which single handedly changed the way road building was seen by the public.
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by Patrick Harper »

Phil wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 20:34
Patrick Harper wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 15:54
jackal wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 15:02
Didn't the protesters prefer a tunnel in the case of Twyford, which presumably would have higher emissions than a cutting given the volumes of concrete required?
Pretty sure they wanted nothing at all, as in maintain the 1992 traffic situation around Winchester.
Not so!

The residents of Winchester (and the surrounding area) definitely wanted an end to queues on the A33 by-pass and were not 'anti-road' per say - indeed many had never been involved in protest action before and from a demographic aspect were from the middle income, car owning, conservative supporting demographic typical of Hampshire.

What they did object to was a stonking great cutting damaging the landscape and were not afraid to protest to make their feelings known. Fatally for road building the Government opted to rough it out and force through their plans , an action which single handedly changed the way road building was seen by the public.
Didn't many of the protestors move on to camping on the future Newbury Bypass and A12 link alignments, et. al? I didn't think the Winchester residents were particularly involved in the Twyford Down squatting.
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