Oxford to Cambridge expressway

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ChrisH
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by ChrisH »

A303Chris wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:19
roadtester wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 14:06 I think this is really bad news. I always thought that couching it in terms of Oxford to Cambridge was terrible PR - it was as much about MK, which was bang in the middle, and connectivity as far out as Norwich in East Anglia and places like Bristol in the West. Also, Ox/Cam made it sound elitist in some way.

The arc is still a thing and it's still a good idea. It will just happen naturally anyway but in stunted form with overloaded roads which will eventually have to be fixed anyway.

I suspect what finished this off was:

a) too many Tory constituencies affected

b) sorting out the Oxford end, especially the A34, just fell into the "too difficult" category.

Nevertheless I think improving the route out from Cambridge to the M1 with the Black Cat improvements is worth doing in its own right.
Spot on, it should have been marketed as South West to East Anglia expressway, taking traffic off the M25.

Think of the France they have the A26 / A19 / A10/ A28/ A29 between 60 and 110 miles outside Paris circling the city, long distance traffic between Reims and Rouen for example is sent signed via the A26 / A29 / A28 avoiding Paris and the N102(A102) / A86.

An A34 /Oxford to MK link / A421 / A428 / A14 would have provide a similar strategic link between the M3 / M27(Southampton) / A303 / M4 / M40 / M1 / A1/ M11 / A11 and Felixstowe taking long distance traffic off the London approaches and the M25.

Strategic Transport Planning no longer exists here. A sad day.
Agreed that the earlier PR around this as the "Oxford to Cambridge Expressway" was very misguided. It's a strategic link for long-distance traffic and goods vehicles to avoid the busiest section of M25 and add some much-needed resilience to our transport network. Tying it to building houses in Oxfordshire was always going to be a tough sell.

The Hendy review into UK connectivity could have proposed something just like this. A great shame I think to miss the opportunity for some kind of link between Bicester and MK by road. And I believe MK has some land reserved for an A421 bypass on its eastern flank?
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wrinkly
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

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ChrisH wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:34 The Hendy review into UK connectivity could have proposed something just like this.
The Oxford-MK-Cambridge corridor is very much internal to England, so not within the terms of reference of the Union Connectivity Review.
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ChrisH
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

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wrinkly wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:29
ChrisH wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:34 The Hendy review into UK connectivity could have proposed something just like this.
The Oxford-MK-Cambridge corridor is very much internal to England, so not within the terms of reference of the Union Connectivity Review.
That's the point: I don't think it is the Oxford-MK-Cambridge corridor. It's the Fishguard/Bristol/Cornwall to Felixstowe and Norfolk corridor; and it takes a flanking manoeuvre against the chronically congested western section of the M25.
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c2R
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

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ChrisH wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:45
wrinkly wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:29
ChrisH wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:34 The Hendy review into UK connectivity could have proposed something just like this.
The Oxford-MK-Cambridge corridor is very much internal to England, so not within the terms of reference of the Union Connectivity Review.
That's the point: I don't think it is the Oxford-MK-Cambridge corridor. It's the Fishguard/Bristol/Cornwall to Felixstowe and Norfolk corridor; and it takes a flanking manoeuvre against the chronically congested western section of the M25.
Yes, and the section from Southampton to Oxford connects a massive amount of freight from the south coast ports to the Midlands. Which is why realistically the section of the A34 through Oxford needs sorting...
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wrinkly
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by wrinkly »

ChrisH wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:45 That's the point: I don't think it is the Oxford-MK-Cambridge corridor. It's the Fishguard/Bristol/Cornwall to Felixstowe and Norfolk corridor; and it takes a flanking manoeuvre against the chronically congested western section of the M25.
But it would contribute nothing to the purpose of the review, which is to make voters in Wales/Scotland/Northern Ireland think favourably of the union.
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

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KeithW wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 09:53 Not just Nimby's. Why should I as a taxpayer in NE England fund a scheme that makes housebuilding possible in Oxfordshire ?
That's a very "pull up the ladder behind you" attitude.

Why should I as a taxpayer in the Midlands pay for road building in Wales, for bailing out scotish fishermen, for emergency aid to third world disaster areas, for hospitals to treat covid patients when I haven't had covid? It's because paying taxes is for the common good.
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

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Big L wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 13:09
KeithW wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 09:53 Not just Nimby's. Why should I as a taxpayer in NE England fund a scheme that makes housebuilding possible in Oxfordshire ?
That's a very "pull up the ladder behind you" attitude.

Why should I as a taxpayer in the Midlands pay for road building in Wales, for bailing out scotish fishermen, for emergency aid to third world disaster areas, for hospitals to treat covid patients when I haven't had covid? It's because paying taxes is for the common good.

The thing is that we split responsibilities for roads between Strategic routes that are funded and managed by Highways England and local roads that are funded and managed at the County Council or regional level. When Highways England publish a scheme that is clearly in large part aimed at making it easier for housing development to occur along the Oxford to Cambridge corridor that in my opinion crosses the line.

As a taxpayer in the Midlands you should be aware that the responsibility for roads in Wales lies with the devolved Welsh administration and in the same way the Scottish Government is responsible for supporting its fishing industry and roads. The NHS is quite rightly funded at the national level , similarly international policy is quite correctly handled at the UK level.

Paying taxes MAY be for the national good but only where that expenditure is appropriately targeted.
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c2R
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

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However, the Welsh administration and Scottish Governments as well as NI do receive block grants from Westminster to carry out these functions.
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

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c2R wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:50 Yes, and the section from Southampton to Oxford connect a massive amount of freight from the south coast ports to the Midlands. Which is why realistically the section of the A34 through Oxford needs sorting...
Indeed and if you look back up this thread you will find I advocated a new strategic route between East Anglia , the Thames Valley and South Western England that avoided London. However when the scheme was published it was proclaimed that one of its main aims was to support development along the Oxford - Cambridge corridor. This was directly responsible for much of the opposition to the scheme.

Let me remind you of the opening preamble
https://assets.highwaysengland.co.uk/roads/road-projects/Oxford+to+Cambridge+expressway/Oxford+to+Cambridge+Expressway+Corridor+overview+booklet.pdf wrote: The Oxford to Cambridge growth arc contains some of the most
productive places in the UK. For decades the region has been
a hub of learning, economic growth and innovation. Home to
3.3 million people, the area is a national asset attracting talent
and investment into the UK and powering Britain’s economy.

The project to develop a new fast, high quality link road signifies
the government’s commitment to invest in the area. This project
will deliver faster and more reliable journeys between the major
cities of Oxford, Milton Keynes and Cambridge, increasing
opportunities for economic growth and new homes for the benefit
of communities in and around the area for decades to come.
As one of my neighbours put it this came across as:

"We are the most prosperous part of the country so we need better roads"
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by jedikiah »

Prior to the expressway planning there were two main options under investigation for A34 improvement in the area M40 to south of Oxford:

Online: Opposed by Oxford City Council. Cost then approx £1Bn.

Replacement: New D2 from Lodge Hill interchange north of Abingdon to M40 junction 8. Would skirt Nuneham Courtenay, Marsh Baldon, Garsington and Cuddesdon through the Green Belt. Opposed by various groups. Estimated cost £500M.

Both also envisaged online widening at least as far as Didcot.

The concept of a replacement to the west of Oxford hadn't arisen then.
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

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KeithW wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 14:35 As one of my neighbours put it this came across as:

"We are the most prosperous part of the country so we need better roads"
I don't think that's the killer argument your neighbour probably thinks it is!

We've traditionally invested a lot in roads in the North East, the North West and other parts of the country to revive areas in decline but I'm not sure that really paid off. The Humber Bridge, the eastern side of the M62 and the M180 haven't exactly turned the Humber into a fizzing growth hub despite considerable expenditure.

On the other hand, something like the just-cancelled scheme could have a much bigger payback by unlocking pent-up development that is just waiting to happen in the growth arc but can't because of crap communications links.

It may be one of the most prosperous parts of the country but it needs to be compared with other places like Silicon Valley or the area around Munich, which are investing infrastructure and will eat our lunch if our high tech growth areas can't offer a similarly favourable environment.

And then everyone in the UK loses.

As we've seen before, this is only delaying the inevitable. Huntingdon to Cambridge was delayed and delayed and delayed until it could be stalled no longer. The truth that Cambridge was no longer a sleepy academic backwater but a bulging rippling world class centre for scientific industries could no longer be denied.
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marconaf
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

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The more I reflect, the more of a loss this is.

Although I dont see an issue with a strategic link AND new towns etc. in the corridor. (But can see why locals might!)

One issue is that if such a HQDC existed from the M4 to M11/A14 I suspect a D2 would quickly be overwhelmed, especially if HGV heavy as their tendancy to Elephant race must throttle a road significantly - I already see that on the A34 and it is a massive pain. The MK-Bedford has filled up massively since I started driving it circa 2013, before any further links are in place.

It strikes me that we need to go backwards in a sense - our road network pre motorways was all about point to point and so traffic was very dispersed. When we built the motorways we created a “hub and spoke” type system canalising all sorts of long distance flows onto just a small handful of (high capacity) routes.

Now we perhaps need to stop trying to increase those principal arteries to ever wider (and as I understand it, less efficient) widths and instead upgrade a mass of “triangles” in effect, offering more direct routings town to town at free flowing, grade separated D2 standard. This would abstract from the arteries and spread flows more widely.

From an environment/health perspective, we should be aiming to do 2 things 1) minimise distance travelled so offering a quick direct route rather than at present where the main roads are often the “other 2 sides of the triangle” and 2) prioritising freeflow to avoid wasteful slowing/stopping/accelerating.
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

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roadtester wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 16:37
KeithW wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 14:35 As one of my neighbours put it this came across as:

"We are the most prosperous part of the country so we need better roads"
I don't think that's the killer argument your neighbour probably thinks it is!

We've traditionally invested a lot in roads in the North East, the North West and other parts of the country to revive areas in decline but I'm not sure that really paid off. The Humber Bridge, the eastern side of the M62 and the M180 haven't exactly turned the Humber into a fizzing growth hub despite considerable expenditure.
What you or I believe doesn't matter, it was absolutely the wrong thing to say. Emphasising this was a new cross country link that avoided London would have gone down much better.
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

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KeithW wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 18:53
roadtester wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 16:37
KeithW wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 14:35 As one of my neighbours put it this came across as:

"We are the most prosperous part of the country so we need better roads"
I don't think that's the killer argument your neighbour probably thinks it is!

We've traditionally invested a lot in roads in the North East, the North West and other parts of the country to revive areas in decline but I'm not sure that really paid off. The Humber Bridge, the eastern side of the M62 and the M180 haven't exactly turned the Humber into a fizzing growth hub despite considerable expenditure.
What you or I believe doesn't matter, it was absolutely the wrong thing to say. Emphasising this was a new cross country link that avoided London would have gone down much better.
Yes - I certainly agree with that.The way I put it came across as incorrectly attributing the argument directly to your neighbour
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

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We can still have transport infrastructure that unlocks all this growth - it doesn't have to be road a through.

As East-West rail is going ahead, a suburban rail or light-rail system connecting all the new towns & estates to this rail link will reduce congestion & provide access to sustainable transport.
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marconaf
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by marconaf »

darkcape wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 19:17 We can still have transport infrastructure that unlocks all this growth - it doesn't have to be road a through.

As East-West rail is going ahead, a suburban rail or light-rail system connecting all the new towns & estates to this rail link will reduce congestion & provide access to sustainable transport.
A Milton Keynes built around that (light rail etc.) would be interesting, but a huge investment up front.

But it’ll never obviate the need for a major road into an area where the existing ones would be instantly swamped with that scale of development.

The M40-M1 is an area that has pretty unparalleled access (potential) to rail though, Chiltern, HS2 and the WCML on the far side with of course EWR cutting through the midde.
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

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darkcape wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 19:17 We can still have transport infrastructure that unlocks all this growth - it doesn't have to be road a through.

As East-West rail is going ahead, a suburban rail or light-rail system connecting all the new towns & estates to this rail link will reduce congestion & provide access to sustainable transport.
That would be brilliant and I would use such a system happily myself. I think East-West rail will be great but I just don't think it can take the place of a decent road connection from the point of view of volumes as much as anything else
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by Al__S »

east west rail is busy getting downgraded to not be electric and not use the slightly more expensive sleeper fittings that increase maintenance intervals by 50%, plus the deranged reaction from the locals west of Cambridge to the sudden realisation that someone wants to put a railway half a mile from the bottom of their half mile long gardens
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

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Al__S wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 20:47 east west rail is busy getting downgraded to not be electric and not use the slightly more expensive sleeper fittings that increase maintenance intervals by 50%, plus the deranged reaction from the locals west of Cambridge to the sudden realisation that someone wants to put a railway half a mile from the bottom of their half mile long gardens
As HS2 shows, all the people who oppose road building, and say we should build more railways instead, suddenly develop an aversion to railways as well as soon as anyone suggests actually building some!
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

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Al__S wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 20:47 east west rail is busy getting downgraded to not be electric and not use the slightly more expensive sleeper fittings that increase maintenance intervals by 50%, plus the deranged reaction from the locals west of Cambridge to the sudden realisation that someone wants to put a railway half a mile from the bottom of their half mile long gardens
Keep the faith. Once the route is in, it can be upgraded, and Network Rail has a very long distance view of achieving carbon neutrality through electrification. It will happen. East West will get wires.
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