Oxford to Cambridge expressway

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mikehindsonevans
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by mikehindsonevans »

Tinpusher wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 21:43
Al__S wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 20:47 east west rail is busy getting downgraded to not be electric and not use the slightly more expensive sleeper fittings that increase maintenance intervals by 50%, plus the deranged reaction from the locals west of Cambridge to the sudden realisation that someone wants to put a railway half a mile from the bottom of their half mile long gardens
Keep the faith. Once the route is in, it can be upgraded, and Network Rail has a very long distance view of achieving carbon neutrality through electrification. It will happen. East West will get wires.
Plus, the lesson of the GWR electrification cost fiasco has been learned. The EWR formation has been designed to maintain a strip where the catenary mast furniture can be installed later.

However, I do agree. Build a whole new electrified railway before the first passenger train runs.

At least they don't have to add a ten-billion pound tunnel under the Chilterns on this route.
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hoagy_ytfc
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by hoagy_ytfc »

mikehindsonevans wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 23:41 Plus, the lesson of the GWR electrification cost fiasco has been learned. The EWR formation has been designed to maintain a strip where the catenary mast furniture can be installed later.
It was rather more than “room for masts” that caused the gwre cost overrun.

Aside from that, I’m very pro rail, but this line is being specced to two trains per hour in each direction as I understand it (*)? Electrified or not, that has near zero impact on the capacity on that route. Cancelling the expressway only makes sense if there’s a corresponding massive upgrade of the rail plans.

* I hope I’m wrong on that number, please correct me.
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by marconaf »

hoagy_ytfc wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 03:33
mikehindsonevans wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 23:41 Plus, the lesson of the GWR electrification cost fiasco has been learned. The EWR formation has been designed to maintain a strip where the catenary mast furniture can be installed later.
It was rather more than “room for masts” that caused the gwre cost overrun.

Aside from that, I’m very pro rail, but this line is being specced to two trains per hour in each direction as I understand it (*)? Electrified or not, that has near zero impact on the capacity on that route. Cancelling the expressway only makes sense if there’s a corresponding massive upgrade of the rail plans.

* I hope I’m wrong on that number, please correct me.
I’m not sure the expressway cancellation needs a EWR uplift - its the cancellation of associated development that means EWR wont see greater local traffic and hence its descoped condition will continue.


Most of the EWR services are longer ones being threaded through with few stops planned, the Aylesbury/High Wycombe sourced trains may already be gone and the Bedford to the East one wont change from current Marston Vale.

It is telling that those against road construction on green grounds are also against HS2, what they are actually against is anything but pulling on whatever argument they can think of.

I’d like to have seen the expressway, full EWR and an EWR-HS2 interchange built, with 1-2 new towns based on villages in the M40-M1 arc. I suspect the locals might not have :-)
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by Peter Freeman »

Railways are not a substitute for roads, nor are roads a substitute for railways. The O-C expressway and the EWR should not be seen as alternatives or competitors. Build either or both, but each only on its merit.
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by jedikiah »

The additional services on E-W Phase 2, over the existing Marston Vale services are Oxford-MK twice an hour, Oxford-Bedford hourly, and Aylesbury-MK hourly. Some of the Oxford services may possibly start from Didcot and maybe further afield. This is a down scope on the earlier plans which for one envisaged an hourly Oxford-Birmingham NS via this route, when it was going to be electric.
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by marconaf »

jedikiah wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:56 The additional services on E-W Phase 2, over the existing Marston Vale services are Oxford-MK twice an hour, Oxford-Bedford hourly, and Aylesbury-MK hourly. Some of the Oxford services may possibly start from Didcot and maybe further afield. This is a down scope on the earlier plans which for one envisaged an hourly Oxford-Birmingham NS via this route, when it was going to be electric.
Not sure about that - I frequent a rail forum and havent seen a Birm NS route mentioned, that would be a long way round and offer nothing that either the Oxford or MK ends dont already have in terms of Birm access. Indeed other than running the Aylesbury to MK no further WCML options are AIUI viable due to paths on that plus the EWR drops trains on the slows side of the WCML and so beyond MK would need a flat crossing to the fasts, the exact opposite of what the EWR Bletchley flyover was intended to avoid. Indeed even to get to MK a 5th dedicated bidirectional line was being considered to avoid interfering with the WCML at all.

There were plans for more Chiltern services, those have been descoped (and even the Aylesbury to MK may already have been also), plus ideas of additional or switched South Coast to North East (Cross Country) services. Ideally they can still be added in, but the EWR will only be 100mph on the Bicester-Bletchley section and they arent upgrading the slow Bletchley to Bedford one.

In reality, the area needs all of this, but that goes hand in hand with massive new town construction. Politically too difficult, which is a tragedy as, as referenced above, the housebuilding will still go ahead, just without a plan or supporting infra and the locals will suffer more.
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by KeithW »

marconaf wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:16
There were plans for more Chiltern services, those have been descoped (and even the Aylesbury to MK may already have been also), plus ideas of additional or switched South Coast to North East (Cross Country) services. Ideally they can still be added in, but the EWR will only be 100mph on the Bicester-Bletchley section and they arent upgrading the slow Bletchley to Bedford one.

In reality, the area needs all of this, but that goes hand in hand with massive new town construction. Politically too difficult, which is a tragedy as, as referenced above, the housebuilding will still go ahead, just without a plan or supporting infra and the locals will suffer more.

It was my understanding that the Chiltern services north of Aylesbury were descoped because EWR were given exclusive rights and Marylebone Station is at full capacity. As to uncontrolled housebuilding that is a failure of policy at many levels including the local authorities and national government We are seeing the same thing happening here that plagues the US. Cities become hollowed out as its easier to sell houses in a leafy new suburb than on brownfield land.
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by jedikiah »

Oxford-MK-Birmingham NS was proposed very early on but seemed to fall away quickly, maybe on main line capacity. It would give alternative connection possibilities than the existing routes, as well as increasing frequency to Coventry and Birmingham International which are only hourly at present. Also a reminder that this was originally supposed to have opened in 2017, at least by politicians.
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by thatapanydude »

I do think the disappointment with east-west rail has been summarised well here. To add my two cents....

1) It is a disaster that its not being electrified from the start, this will come back to bite hard I reckon and completely goes against our de-carbon strategy.

2) Services proposed are a bit of a let down and don't fully utilised the line properly in my opinion. I have heard of the issues to get the OXF to MKC service pathed in on the WCML and this is not forgetting the OXF to Bedford service which at this rate might not even call at MKC rather Bletchley - which while okay and saves a reversal it obviously means connections are lost on the Avanti intercity trains.

3) Also I am very disappointed that the Marylebone to MKC service looks like to be canned !! Aylesbury does need stronger connections to the North. I would think Marylebone has capacity as it is just extension of the current Marylebone to Aylesbury/Parkway services.

4) I think the branch line to Buckingham should also be reopened - only 5 miles of single track needed to link well at Winslow.

5) Regarding the route out of Bedford - I am in favour of the Northern route (as it doesn't spoil our countryside view from our house unlike some of the other proposals - I could probably call myself a NIMBY in this regard !!) though more seriously going through Midland is stronger for connections on EMR and Thameslink. On a side note hopefully trains will still call at St John's with that area being redeveloped with a parkway station/shopping centre/development - massive car park and brownfield land between Cauldwell St, Kinsway and the A6 is available.

6) With the southern route selected hopefully they will build a 4 platform station at Addenbrookes - I do not know if this is confirmed.

Apart from this I am very much looking forward to EWR and will probably be a regular patron on it too.
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by Stevie D »

Tinpusher wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 21:43Once the route is in, it can be upgraded, and Network Rail has a very long distance view of achieving carbon neutrality through electrification. It will happen. East West will get wires.
It will happen, but it will be vastly more expensive to do it later. It costs more to retrofit electrification to an existing route rather than to add it in during construction, and it takes longer and causes more disruption during the installation process because you have to suspend services at times and work around them at others. And in the meantime there's a suboptimal service that isn't giving the environmental benefits that it should do. With the big surplus of unwanted but perfectly serviceable second-hand EMUs that are hanging around, rolling stock could be sourced instantly and cheaply, more so than if diesel units are needed – and we shouldn't be buying any more new diesel trains, at worst any new trains should be bi-mode, but that is more expensive to buy and run than getting electric units from the start.
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by Big L »

Stevie D wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 19:05 It will happen, but it will be vastly more expensive to do it later. It costs more to retrofit electrification to an existing route rather than to add it in during construction, and it takes longer and causes more disruption.....
Has a line ever been electrified that was designed from the outset to be electrified? I would hope it would be substantially cheaper than normal schemes. Bridges shouldn't need to be rebuilt because of lack of clearance. Signals, fencing etc wouldn't need updating.
Stevie D wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 19:05 ....With the big surplus of unwanted but perfectly serviceable second-hand EMUs that are hanging around, rolling stock could be sourced instantly and cheaply....
Very sensible. However, when Walsall to Rugeley was electrified a couple of years ago, there were loud complaints from some about the old trains that were put on. Trains that were about 15 years old at the time. I'm sure I heard similar complaints about the old Thameslink trains sent up to Liverpool/Manchester. I can't see the folk of Oxford/Cambridge being too chuffed at getting second hand trains on their shiny new railway.
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by thatapanydude »

Big L wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 19:25 Very sensible. However, when Walsall to Rugeley was electrified a couple of years ago, there were loud complaints from some about the old trains that were put on. Trains that were about 15 years old at the time. I'm sure I heard similar complaints about the old Thameslink trains sent up to Liverpool/Manchester. I can't see the folk of Oxford/Cambridge being too chuffed at getting second hand trains on their shiny new railway.
The class 170s while ideal for the route aren't that pleasing. I wonder if first class would be provided too? That would push some business customers of the roads I reckon.

I mean I am not holding out for the best - only have to look at Bedford where DfT are downgrading the MML from inter-city 125mph to near 20 year old Class 360s at 100mph with 3+2 seating. With that kind of spec I would guess more would probably end up using the M1 esp from Bedfordshire up to the E.Midlands.
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by Stevie D »

thatapanydude wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 19:54I mean I am not holding out for the best - only have to look at Bedford where DfT are downgrading the MML from inter-city 125mph to near 20 year old Class 360s at 100mph with 3+2 seating. With that kind of spec I would guess more would probably end up using the M1 esp from Bedfordshire up to the E.Midlands.
The class 360s are being refurbished with 2+2 seating and modified for 110mph for the East Midlands services, and they will increase the EMR service from Bedford to London from hourly to half-hourly, so I don't expect that many people will abandon the train. The only thing that will be less convenient is the loss of through services to Leicester and beyond, but they reckon that the new improved timetable means that even with a change at Kettering those journey will not take any longer than they do now.
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by Stevie D »

Big L wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 19:25Has a line ever been electrified that was designed from the outset to be electrified? I would hope it would be substantially cheaper than normal schemes. Bridges shouldn't need to be rebuilt because of lack of clearance. Signals, fencing etc wouldn't need updating.

Very sensible. However, when Walsall to Rugeley was electrified a couple of years ago, there were loud complaints from some about the old trains that were put on. Trains that were about 15 years old at the time. I'm sure I heard similar complaints about the old Thameslink trains sent up to Liverpool/Manchester. I can't see the folk of Oxford/Cambridge being too chuffed at getting second hand trains on their shiny new railway.
Yes, I'm sure that electrifying a line that has been built with passive provision for electrification will be easier than one that hasn't, but it is still going to be more expensive, disruptive and time-consuming than doing it all at the start.

Hard luck. People need to understand that not everyone can have brand new trains all the time. Give them a decent refurbishment and most passengers wouldn't be any much the wiser. While there were some complaints about the old Thameslink trains going up to Manchester and Liverpool, a lot of that was because they didn't get a decent refurbishment, they still have the same horrible seating arrangements they had before. But that said, slightly old and tired as they were, they were still a huge step up on the Pacers and Sprinters that were running most of those services before. The key thing is that the trains provide a comfortable journey – both the Class 350s and 365s are good trains that, with a half-decent refurb, would be perfectly up to the job of giving a good service on a regional route like this.

New/reopened lines usually don't get new trains.
When the Robin Hood Line reopened between Nottingham and Worksop in the 1990s, it was run by 10 year old Class 156s.
When the Ribble Valley Line reopened between Clitheroe and Blackburn in the 1990s, it was run by 10 year old Pacers and Sprinters.
When the Alloa branch line reopened between Stirling and Alloa in 2009, it was run by 30 year old Class 158s.
When the Airdrie to Bathgate line was reopened in 2011, it was run by 10 year old Class 334s.
When the Waverley Line reopened between Edinburgh and Tweedbank in 2015, it was run by 35 year old Class 158s.
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by Chris Bertram »

Stevie D wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 20:40
Big L wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 19:25Has a line ever been electrified that was designed from the outset to be electrified? I would hope it would be substantially cheaper than normal schemes. Bridges shouldn't need to be rebuilt because of lack of clearance. Signals, fencing etc wouldn't need updating.

Very sensible. However, when Walsall to Rugeley was electrified a couple of years ago, there were loud complaints from some about the old trains that were put on. Trains that were about 15 years old at the time. I'm sure I heard similar complaints about the old Thameslink trains sent up to Liverpool/Manchester. I can't see the folk of Oxford/Cambridge being too chuffed at getting second hand trains on their shiny new railway.
Yes, I'm sure that electrifying a line that has been built with passive provision for electrification will be easier than one that hasn't, but it is still going to be more expensive, disruptive and time-consuming than doing it all at the start.

Hard luck. People need to understand that not everyone can have brand new trains all the time. Give them a decent refurbishment and most passengers wouldn't be any much the wiser. While there were some complaints about the old Thameslink trains going up to Manchester and Liverpool, a lot of that was because they didn't get a decent refurbishment, they still have the same horrible seating arrangements they had before. But that said, slightly old and tired as they were, they were still a huge step up on the Pacers and Sprinters that were running most of those services before. The key thing is that the trains provide a comfortable journey – both the Class 350s and 365s are good trains that, with a half-decent refurb, would be perfectly up to the job of giving a good service on a regional route like this.

New/reopened lines usually don't get new trains.
When the Robin Hood Line reopened between Nottingham and Worksop in the 1990s, it was run by 10 year old Class 156s.
When the Ribble Valley Line reopened between Clitheroe and Blackburn in the 1990s, it was run by 10 year old Pacers and Sprinters.
When the Alloa branch line reopened between Stirling and Alloa in 2009, it was run by 30 year old Class 158s.
When the Airdrie to Bathgate line was reopened in 2011, it was run by 10 year old Class 334s.
When the Waverley Line reopened between Edinburgh and Tweedbank in 2015, it was run by 35 year old Class 158s.
If you think that's bad, the Island Line between Shanklin and Ryde runs on cast-off LU stock, and from 1968 none of it had originally been built before 1938, though it had been refurbished and converted from 4th to 3rd rail power. They are now getting Class 484 stock, which once again is old LU stock, in this case District Line 1978 trains with appropriate modifications. I guess the islanders must be used to it by now.
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by Stevie D »

Chris Bertram wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 21:04If you think that's bad, the Island Line between Shanklin and Ryde runs on cast-off LU stock, and from 1968 none of it had originally been built before 1938, though it had been refurbished and converted from 4th to 3rd rail power. They are now getting Class 484 stock, which once again is old LU stock, in this case District Line 1978 trains with appropriate modifications. I guess the islanders must be used to it by now.
Most people on the Isle of Wight think 1978 was only 3 years ago anyway, so they think it's state-of-the-art :stir:
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by trickstat »

Chris Bertram wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 21:04
Stevie D wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 20:40
Big L wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 19:25Has a line ever been electrified that was designed from the outset to be electrified? I would hope it would be substantially cheaper than normal schemes. Bridges shouldn't need to be rebuilt because of lack of clearance. Signals, fencing etc wouldn't need updating.

Very sensible. However, when Walsall to Rugeley was electrified a couple of years ago, there were loud complaints from some about the old trains that were put on. Trains that were about 15 years old at the time. I'm sure I heard similar complaints about the old Thameslink trains sent up to Liverpool/Manchester. I can't see the folk of Oxford/Cambridge being too chuffed at getting second hand trains on their shiny new railway.
Yes, I'm sure that electrifying a line that has been built with passive provision for electrification will be easier than one that hasn't, but it is still going to be more expensive, disruptive and time-consuming than doing it all at the start.

Hard luck. People need to understand that not everyone can have brand new trains all the time. Give them a decent refurbishment and most passengers wouldn't be any much the wiser. While there were some complaints about the old Thameslink trains going up to Manchester and Liverpool, a lot of that was because they didn't get a decent refurbishment, they still have the same horrible seating arrangements they had before. But that said, slightly old and tired as they were, they were still a huge step up on the Pacers and Sprinters that were running most of those services before. The key thing is that the trains provide a comfortable journey – both the Class 350s and 365s are good trains that, with a half-decent refurb, would be perfectly up to the job of giving a good service on a regional route like this.

New/reopened lines usually don't get new trains.
When the Robin Hood Line reopened between Nottingham and Worksop in the 1990s, it was run by 10 year old Class 156s.
When the Ribble Valley Line reopened between Clitheroe and Blackburn in the 1990s, it was run by 10 year old Pacers and Sprinters.
When the Alloa branch line reopened between Stirling and Alloa in 2009, it was run by 30 year old Class 158s.
When the Airdrie to Bathgate line was reopened in 2011, it was run by 10 year old Class 334s.
When the Waverley Line reopened between Edinburgh and Tweedbank in 2015, it was run by 35 year old Class 158s.
If you think that's bad, the Island Line between Shanklin and Ryde runs on cast-off LU stock, and from 1968 none of it had originally been built before 1938, though it had been refurbished and converted from 4th to 3rd rail power. They are now getting Class 484 stock, which once again is old LU stock, in this case District Line 1978 trains with appropriate modifications. I guess the islanders must be used to it by now.
Apparently standard National Rail trains are too tall for Ryde Tunnel which has had its floor raised to reduce flood risk.
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by Chris Bertram »

trickstat wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 21:48
Chris Bertram wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 21:04
Stevie D wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 20:40 Yes, I'm sure that electrifying a line that has been built with passive provision for electrification will be easier than one that hasn't, but it is still going to be more expensive, disruptive and time-consuming than doing it all at the start.

Hard luck. People need to understand that not everyone can have brand new trains all the time. Give them a decent refurbishment and most passengers wouldn't be any much the wiser. While there were some complaints about the old Thameslink trains going up to Manchester and Liverpool, a lot of that was because they didn't get a decent refurbishment, they still have the same horrible seating arrangements they had before. But that said, slightly old and tired as they were, they were still a huge step up on the Pacers and Sprinters that were running most of those services before. The key thing is that the trains provide a comfortable journey – both the Class 350s and 365s are good trains that, with a half-decent refurb, would be perfectly up to the job of giving a good service on a regional route like this.

New/reopened lines usually don't get new trains.
When the Robin Hood Line reopened between Nottingham and Worksop in the 1990s, it was run by 10 year old Class 156s.
When the Ribble Valley Line reopened between Clitheroe and Blackburn in the 1990s, it was run by 10 year old Pacers and Sprinters.
When the Alloa branch line reopened between Stirling and Alloa in 2009, it was run by 30 year old Class 158s.
When the Airdrie to Bathgate line was reopened in 2011, it was run by 10 year old Class 334s.
When the Waverley Line reopened between Edinburgh and Tweedbank in 2015, it was run by 35 year old Class 158s.
If you think that's bad, the Island Line between Shanklin and Ryde runs on cast-off LU stock, and from 1968 none of it had originally been built before 1938, though it had been refurbished and converted from 4th to 3rd rail power. They are now getting Class 484 stock, which once again is old LU stock, in this case District Line 1978 trains with appropriate modifications. I guess the islanders must be used to it by now.
Apparently standard National Rail trains are too tall for Ryde Tunnel which has had its floor raised to reduce flood risk.
That is true, but they're changing from tube stock to subsurface stock, which has a profile much closer to main line trains. It seems that they *just* fit through the tunnel. I haven't been on the "new" trains, but I have experienced the old 1938 ex-Northern Line stock. It was looking a bit tired, though the Island Line shuttle service must be a lot less taxing than a full daily Tube service.
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

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Only the bodies and bogies of the ex-sub-surface line are being retained. Everything else is new. I think the bodies are aluminium alloy, which should last better than steel in the sea air.
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Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by B1018 A120 M11 »

I did look through this thread and also at various news websites to see if I could find a definite answer to this, but all I could find were either speculative replies that were uncertain, or (in the case of the news sites) cut-and-pastes of the same underlying info about the expressway cancellation that didn't answer my more specfic question, so here goes:

It's clear the idea of a through-route expressway project from the A34 near Oxford to the A428 at the Caxton Gibbet is no longer on the cards as of March 2021 — but does anyone know for sure whether the D2 section of the A421 from the A1 Black Cat to the D2 at the Caxton Gibbet has been iced as well? Or is that still on? Can't find anything definitive on that...
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