Oxford to Cambridge expressway

[NICK 647063]

I think the major problem with the A428 was the fact they allowed a massive new town to be built on a section that was S2 at the time, surely any planning for cambourne should have included the full new D2 before planning was passed.

The problem with this oxford Cambridge expressway is they basically want to get this link blue lined on the map but instead of building a new D3M they are plugging many existing routes into each other which yes will be upgraded to expressway standard but by that I assume will be D2 freeflow with technology added, as we know these expressways will have an (M) after the number and will appear on the map as motorways but if we are just using roads that already have 65k on them surely this is a very short sighted view, you are going to turn roads that flow fine at the moment into car parks, D2’s are simply not future proofed look at the A1(M) Doncaster bypass it was built as D2M then over the years the M1 and M18 have linked into it, with improvements North from the M62 upwards and now we have a situation where it will need an expensive upgrade, if you are planning on linking roads into others the existing roads need widening too and this should be the case with the A421 around Bedford.

[darkcape]

I thought some of the idea between an Oxford-Cambridge route was to provide a high-quality route that travels on a rough SW-NE alignment that bypasses London and the M25?

There's some good pieces of road in the home counties that can be connected to create some better alternative routes around the capital. The A421 M1-A1, parts of A428 and A120 offer fast routes east-west, but often die into an S2 or at a motorway junction. I've driven Banbury/Milton Keynes a few times and the A421 is rarely above 40mph in rush hour, despite being an NSL road. A route from Oxford to M1 J13 would create better options for people heading SW/NE, giving a faster alternative to the A45, and A43.

Its a good job that this pretty much what it is being planned then is it not ?
The main questions to be resolved seem to be what exact route you take from Brogborough to Oxford.

I'm not wasting time trawling back through this topic but I think you're quoting me from a year ago before any route was announced.

[Al__S]

if at the eastern end the (M) designation, regardless of whether it is the A428, A421 or some other Axx or Axxx, is extended back to include the current D2 from Girton (and there is full Local Access Road provision along here already) then this will result in an extension of the A14(M) to at least Histon interchange I would think?

[KeithW]

I'm not wasting time trawling back through this topic but I think you're quoting me from a year ago before any route was announced.

I apologise I am not sure what happened - put it down to 2 glasses of wine and old age

[KeithW]

if at the eastern end the (M) designation, regardless of whether it is the A428, A421 or some other Axx or Axxx, is extended back to include the current D2 from Girton (and there is full Local Access Road provision along here already) then this will result in an extension of the A14(M) to at least Histon interchange I would think?

Well there is not quite full LAR provision on the A428 but the only missing bit is Cambourne to Caxton Gibbet which could be added when the junction is redesigned. While it may be possible to extend the A14(M) back to the Histon Interchange I wonder is it worth the trouble ? We are talking about a short stretch of road and the legal and parliamentary costs of adding a couple of miles of blue line hardly seems worth the effort given that there will be no real world benefit.

[Micro The Maniac]

there will be no real world benefit.

I would disagree with the *no* real-world benefit... the speed limits on HQDC and motorway are different for motorhomes, minibuses (inc small coaches) and LGVs

Perhaps *limited* real-world benefits

[roadtester]

I could have done with an Oxford to Cambridge expressway yesterday.

I was driving from my home in Cambs to Oxford for a college reunion and it was a tortuous process.

Lots of slow progress on the SC section between Caxton Gibbett and the A1 and then when I reached the M1 the A421 was obviously more or less completely static going towards MK.

I headed south one junction on the M1 and then struck out across country picking out a twisting and turning route skirting Leighton Buzzard and Aylesbury before joining the A40 to approach Oxford from the west rather than the north as planned.

It can’t come too soon!

[trickstat]

I do hope the calculations for traffic levels for the Oxford to Cambridge expressway have allowed for its use by people for journeys that neither start or finish along or very near the actual route. Planners sometimes seem to forget that the road they are planning will get used by these people as well.

[KeithW]

I think the major problem with the A428 was the fact they allowed a massive new town to be built on a section that was S2 at the time, surely any planning for cambourne should have included the full new D2 before planning was passed.

The problem with this oxford Cambridge expressway is they basically want to get this link blue lined on the map but instead of building a new D3M they are plugging many existing routes into each other which yes will be upgraded to expressway standard but by that I assume will be D2 freeflow with technology added, as we know these expressways will have an (M) after the number and will appear on the map as motorways but if we are just using roads that already have 65k on them surely this is a very short sighted view, you are going to turn roads that flow fine at the moment into car parks, D2’s are simply not future proofed look at the A1(M) Doncaster bypass it was built as D2M then over the years the M1 and M18 have linked into it, with improvements North from the M62 upwards and now we have a situation where it will need an expensive upgrade, if you are planning on linking roads into others the existing roads need widening too and this should be the case with the A421 around Bedford.

Well the development of Cambourne and the recognition of the need for construction the new road essentially happened at the same time.

Planning permission for Phase 1 of the Cambourne development was given in November 1996, and construction began in June 1998. The first house was moved into in August 1999. While it was still being built discussions about the A428 improvement were already under way and I recall the hoo ha when the council went to war with itself over the felling of trees for the new Cambourne junction. One department was threatening the land owners with legal action for felling trees while another department was ordering the felling to to be done ! The landowner actually had to go court to get it resolved and the judge was not happy with the council ineptitude making them pay the entire legal costs. The existence of Cambourne was used as a lever to get government to buy in to the plan.

The legislation was approved in 2005 - this you may recall was another time of crisis at national level with a general election followed by the resignation of the PM, economic troubles, the Iraq war etc. The attention of HMG was not exactly focussed on the A428/A421 and this was also the period when the first A14 improvement scheme was allowed to wither on the vine.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/200 ... view=plain
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/L-57600-205

The new road opened completely in 2007 but it opened in stages with junction improvements at Hardwick and the western (Cambourne) end opening in 2006 at which time work in Cambourne was far from complete, indeed it was at an early stage. It was 2007 before Cambridgeshire County Council actually began the process of adopting the roads and setting legally enforceable speed limits.
https://www.huntspost.co.uk/lifestyle/u ... t-1-410311

At the same time bypasses were being built around Papworth Everard and Caxton. I suspect none of this would have happened except for the new housing developments at Cambourne, Caldecote and Papworth. I know they had started expanding Papworth in 1996 because I looked at some of the new housing there (rabbit hutches) before settling on Gamlingay where the village plan insisted on lower density development. There may have been no national plan for the A428 improvement but Cambridgeshire County Council and South Cambridgeshire clearly did have designs in that direction, in fact planning permission for the second phase was not agreed until AFTER the new road had opened and South Cambs District Council was among the first commercial tenants of the new town.

As to using existing roads I feel it is necessary to point out that it was hard enough to persuade people and governments to pay for D2 bypasses of Bedford and Cambourne, insisting on D3 let alone D3(M) would have resulted in those roads not being built. Now that they are there its politically much easier to widen them as part of an east west expressway just as the virtual rebuilding of the A1(M) from Ferrybridge to Barton was done in stages. Softly Softly Catchee Monkey. In fact the entire A1/A1(M) project started out as individual S2 and D2 bypasses of towns such as Barnet, Hatfield, Stevenage, Baldock etc.

Had anybody proposed a D3(M) bypass of the Wetherby roundabout in 1972 they would have been ridiculed.

While it may seem obvious now that the Doncaster bypass was going to be inadequate you have to see that decison in the context of the time when large sections of the A1 were still S2. As late as 1971 heading to Teesside you got to Dishforth and joined an A19 that was S2 all the way passing through the centre of Thirsk, Stockton etc. or took the A172 through the centre of Middlesbrough to join the A19 in Billingham. If you used the D2(M) Darlington bypass when you got to Washington the A1 ploughed through suburban Gateshead and central Newcastle. The Donny bypass was utopian in comparison.

[KeithW]

there will be no real world benefit.

I would disagree with the *no* real-world benefit... the speed limits on HQDC and motorway are different for motorhomes, minibuses (inc small coaches) and LGVs

Perhaps *limited* real-world benefits

For 1.2 miles - I class it as no real-world benefit in fact while it makes sense to make the new A14 a motorway in reality it is a small section of the 120 mile long route from Felixstowe to Catthorpe. In fact given the new interchange layout and queues around the Histon junction it is probably safer to retain existing speed limits through that section.

[Robert Kilcoyne]

While it may seem obvious now that the Doncaster bypass was going to be inadequate you have to see that decision in the context of the time when large sections of the A1 were still S2. As late as 1971 heading to Teesside you got to Dishforth and joined an A19 that was S2 all the way passing through the centre of Thirsk, Stockton etc. or took the A172 through the centre of Middlesbrough to join the A19 in Billingham. If you used the D2(M) Darlington bypass when you got to Washington the A1 ploughed through suburban Gateshead and central Newcastle. The Donny bypass was utopian in comparison.

The same comment would apply to the A74 in Scotland. While the 1960's dual carriageway was built to a high specification for its time, it would be considered 20 years later to be very outdated and even dangerous in places.

[KeithW]

I could have done with an Oxford to Cambridge expressway yesterday.

I was driving from my home in Cambs to Oxford for a college reunion and it was a tortuous process.

Lots of slow progress on the SC section between Caxton Gibbett and the A1 and then when I reached the M1 the A421 was obviously more or less completely static going towards MK.

I headed south one junction on the M1 and then struck out across country picking out a twisting and turning route skirting Leighton Buzzard and Aylesbury before joining the A40 to approach Oxford from the west rather than the north as planned.

It can’t come too soon!

Welcome to my world as it was between 2002 and 2016

I tried every iteration possible (except that one) including

M11-M25-M4-A34 north
M11-M25-M40-A40 approaching Oxford from the east (big mistake)
A603-B1042-A603-A421-A43-M40-A34 south
A1(M)-North Orbital Road-M25-M4-A34 north
For the last few years my route of choice was
A14-A45-A43-M40-A34 south - the least worst option once I became terminally frustrated by the roundabouts of MK and found my route around Northampton

[roadtester]

Welcome to my world as it was between 2002 and 2016

I tried every iteration possible (except that one) including

M11-M25-M4-A34 north
M11-M25-M40-A40 approaching Oxford from the east (big mistake)
A603-B1042-A603-A421-A43-M40-A34 south
A1(M)-North Orbital Road-M25-M4-A34 north
For the last few years my route of choice was
A14-A45-A43-M40-A34 south - the least worst option once I became terminally frustrated by the roundabouts of MK and found my route around Northampton

For my return route today I opted for the last route on your list, which already forms an Oxford/Cambridge Expressway of sorts in that it is mostly dualled, albeit with lots of roundabouts to disrupt progress. I wonder whether there would be any point in upgrading that corridor instead or as well.

I used to do a lot of the East/West journeys when visiting my late parents in Gloucestershire and did all of the options on your list at one time or another.

All are quite interesting and can be fun if traffic is light and you enjoy a bit of variety but they are all quite hard work too.

[KeithW]

Welcome to my world as it was between 2002 and 2016

I tried every iteration possible (except that one) including

M11-M25-M4-A34 north
M11-M25-M40-A40 approaching Oxford from the east (big mistake)
A603-B1042-A603-A421-A43-M40-A34 south
A1(M)-North Orbital Road-M25-M4-A34 north
For the last few years my route of choice was
A14-A45-A43-M40-A34 south - the least worst option once I became terminally frustrated by the roundabouts of MK and found my route around Northampton

For my return route today I opted for the last route on your list, which already forms an Oxford/Cambridge Expressway of sorts in that it is mostly dualled, albeit with lots of roundabouts to disrupt progress. I wonder whether there would be any point in upgrading that corridor instead or as well.

I used to do a lot of the East/West journeys when visiting my late parents in Gloucestershire and did all of the options on your list at one time or another.

All are quite interesting and can be fun if traffic is light and you enjoy a bit of variety but they are all quite hard work too.

The last route has its problems as an Expressway route

A14 - OK could be increased to D3 to the A45 and J13 made freeflow GSJ
A45 - S2 sections could be widened to D2 but upgrading Northampton section could be difficult and can get quite busy
A43 - mostly D2 and capable of upgrading BUT junction with M40 is a mess
M40 - J9 is a major bottleneck that on a weekday results in traffic queuing on the M40 for a mile or more
A34 - Desperately overloaded, downright dangerous and rather difficult to upgrade. The Oxford Southern Bypass which is hemmed in by residential and industrial developments many of which have direct access on to the road
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.74848 ... 6656?hl=en

I suspect that should the full blown Expressway project would be axed this route is the most likely to see some upgrade but in the long term it is inadequate IMHO.

[giblets46]

Any route realistically needs to go south of Oxford for the reasons mentioned previously, plus any other route will cause chaos with other routes north of Oxford (eg A40. The southern routes major issue will be politics!


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[Roavin]

Welcome to my world as it was between 2002 and 2016

I tried every iteration possible (except that one) including

M11-M25-M4-A34 north
M11-M25-M40-A40 approaching Oxford from the east (big mistake)
A603-B1042-A603-A421-A43-M40-A34 south
A1(M)-North Orbital Road-M25-M4-A34 north
For the last few years my route of choice was
A14-A45-A43-M40-A34 south - the least worst option once I became terminally frustrated by the roundabouts of MK and found my route around Northampton

For my return route today I opted for the last route on your list, which already forms an Oxford/Cambridge Expressway of sorts in that it is mostly dualled, albeit with lots of roundabouts to disrupt progress. I wonder whether there would be any point in upgrading that corridor instead or as well.

I used to do a lot of the East/West journeys when visiting my late parents in Gloucestershire and did all of the options on your list at one time or another.

All are quite interesting and can be fun if traffic is light and you enjoy a bit of variety but they are all quite hard work too.

The last route has its problems as an Expressway route

A14 - OK could be increased to D3 to the A45 and J13 made freeflow GSJ
A45 - S2 sections could be widened to D2 but upgrading Northampton section could be difficult and can get quite busy
A43 - mostly D2 and capable of upgrading BUT junction with M40 is a mess
M40 - J9 is a major bottleneck that on a weekday results in traffic queuing on the M40 for a mile or more
A34 - Desperately overloaded, downright dangerous and rather difficult to upgrade. The Oxford Southern Bypass which is hemmed in by residential and industrial developments many of which have direct access on to the road
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.74848 ... 6656?hl=en

I suspect that should the full blown Expressway project would be axed this route is the most likely to see some upgrade but in the long term it is inadequate IMHO.

I'm quite honestly suprised, that with the modern nanny state and all, that the limit on the A34 hasn't been reduced to 40 considering how dodgy it is.

[Berk]

Probably because it’s a trunk route. And only the Oxford section comes close to have property fronting the highway; in that respect, sure it would otherwise be 40, doesn’t take much to bring the limit down now.

However, I’m sure it would be cheaper to provide alternate (vehicular) accesses to the few properties concerned. And if it was ultimately “too difficult” to do that, then demolition should be a consideration.

Before anyone says that’s too extreme, remember you’re trying to protect people - both motorists and residents.

Although I’ve driven that way quite a few times, and was aware of the lay-by, I didn’t think it actually opened directly on to the A34, A1-style.

[Roavin]

Probably because it’s a trunk route. And only the Oxford section comes close to have property fronting the highway; in that respect, sure it would otherwise be 40, doesn’t take much to bring the limit down now.

However, I’m sure it would be cheaper to provide alternate (vehicular) accesses to the few properties concerned. And if it was ultimately “too difficult” to do that, then demolition should be a consideration.

Before anyone says that’s too extreme, remember you’re trying to protect people - both motorists and residents.

Although I’ve driven that way quite a few times, and was aware of the lay-by, I didn’t think it actually opened directly on to the A34, A1-style.

It may just be a thing with certain counties, but I've driven on many trunk routes with a 40mph limit which have similar or even better conditions than that. For example, this pesky speed trap

[roadtester]

I headed south one junction on the M1 and then struck out across country picking out a twisting and turning route skirting Leighton Buzzard and Aylesbury before joining the A40 to approach Oxford from the west rather than the north as planned.

This should be “...from the east” of course!

[Al__S]

if at the eastern end the (M) designation, regardless of whether it is the A428, A421 or some other Axx or Axxx, is extended back to include the current D2 from Girton (and there is full Local Access Road provision along here already) then this will result in an extension of the A14(M) to at least Histon interchange I would think?

Well there is not quite full LAR provision on the A428 but the only missing bit is Cambourne to Caxton Gibbet which could be added when the junction is redesigned. While it may be possible to extend the A14(M) back to the Histon Interchange I wonder is it worth the trouble ? We are talking about a short stretch of road and the legal and parliamentary costs of adding a couple of miles of blue line hardly seems worth the effort given that there will be no real world benefit.

It depends a little on how close LAR provsion needs to be- after all, the cycle access reaches the A1198, and motor vehicles can access said road through Cambourne.

If all the A428 gets blue signs from the Girton Interchange, then the A14 between Histon and Girton junctions has to as well as otherwise all three options for a driver coming from the east at Girton would be Motorways. If kept as green signs, the furthest east the A428(M) could extend would be Hardwick