Oxford to Cambridge expressway

The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.

There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).

Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.

Moderator: Site Management Team

Post Reply
User avatar
jackal
Member
Posts: 7549
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 23:33
Location: M6

Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by jackal »

KeithW wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:58 I dont think that any plan that includes driving a D3 or D4 road with GSJ's through Milton Keynes would stand a chance of being approved especially one that includes closing existing junctions on what is a key spine road. The effect would be to cut MK in half. There is far to much infrastructure in the way including the A5 and railway to put it in a cutting or tunnel. It would have to be elevated, the result would be a monstrosity similar to the Westway.

There is in any case no reason why the Expressway needs to go near MK at all. What is needed is to find a route south of MK from Brogborough running between MK and Leighton Buzzard before running south and east of the existing A34 to enter Oxford from the North East and having a junction on the A40. If no such route can be built then there will be no Oxford to Cambridge Expressway. Ideally it would run close to the the East West Rail Link. I am thinking of something similar to CA-24 which runs between Oakland and Walnut Creek near Orinda where the BART rail system runs through the central reservation here.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@37.87774 ... authuser=0

You can get off the Freeway leave your car and carry on into Oakland , San Francisco or Walnut Creek by train.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Wal ... authuser=0

For some reason we dont seem to do joined up transport planning here.
EWR between Oxford and Bedford uses disused or freight lines. Given this I don't think it would be practical to put EWR in the expressway central reservation. Certainly a less extreme co-location, as HE have suggested, may be appropriate.
mikehindsonevans
Member
Posts: 1359
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:44
Location: Cheshire, but working week time in Cambridge

Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by mikehindsonevans »

With the exception of the planned replacement train station at Winslow, I am not certain that EWR *currently* has much provision for "park and train".
Mike Hindson-Evans.
Never argue with a conspiracy theorist.
They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
User avatar
Richard_Fairhurst
Member
Posts: 441
Joined: Wed May 07, 2003 13:16

Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by Richard_Fairhurst »

KeithW wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:58 I dont think that any plan that includes driving a D3 or D4 road with GSJ's through Milton Keynes would stand a chance of being approved especially one that includes closing existing junctions on what is a key spine road. The effect would be to cut MK in half.
There are already a lot of grade-separated crossings of the A421 through MK - I count 28 underpasses in all. They are, of course, the Redways.

A carefully thought-out programme involving a number of junction closures, a couple of GSJs, an S1 service road at key points (not necessarily along the whole length), and investment in the Redways would probably achieve everything that's needed. The notion that England's no 2 transport priority should be another expressway parallel to and just 25 miles south of the A14 is utterly hubristic - just fix the capacity issues on the existing road.
Help map the world: openstreetmap.org
User avatar
jackal
Member
Posts: 7549
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 23:33
Location: M6

Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by jackal »

Richard_Fairhurst wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 14:18 The notion that England's no 2 transport priority should be another expressway parallel to and just 25 miles south of the A14 is utterly hubristic - just fix the capacity issues on the existing road.
If you think two expressways separated by 25 miles is too much you must love our supposedly more enlightened neighbours, e.g.:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.2052795,6.9295104,9z

Surely hubris would be severing two halves of a town with an expressway when there's a perfectly good route for a bypass.
User avatar
thatapanydude
Member
Posts: 522
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2015 21:35
Location: Bedfordshire

Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by thatapanydude »

Here is my sketch which I referred to earlier. It would be D4 between the Hospital and the A5 junction at Beanhill and from the A5130 and A4146 junctions. D3 east of Beanhill and D3 west to Magna Park and the A421 alignment at Brogborough - which should be widened to the A6 to D3. Other junctions I would close off with bridges to take traffic onto other local roads. MK is a grid system so I would disagree that such as scheme would cut it in half and rather like the A5 would be a complement to MK.

Red is D3, Burgundy is D4, Green Circle is a GSJ.
Attachments
A421 MK to Bucks.gif
A1/A1(M) >>> M1
User avatar
KeithW
Member
Posts: 19205
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 13:25
Location: Marton-In-Cleveland North Yorks

Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by KeithW »

Richard_Fairhurst wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 14:18
KeithW wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:58 I dont think that any plan that includes driving a D3 or D4 road with GSJ's through Milton Keynes would stand a chance of being approved especially one that includes closing existing junctions on what is a key spine road. The effect would be to cut MK in half.
There are already a lot of grade-separated crossings of the A421 through MK - I count 28 underpasses in all. They are, of course, the Redways.

A carefully thought-out programme involving a number of junction closures, a couple of GSJs, an S1 service road at key points (not necessarily along the whole length), and investment in the Redways would probably achieve everything that's needed. The notion that England's no 2 transport priority should be another expressway parallel to and just 25 miles south of the A14 is utterly hubristic - just fix the capacity issues on the existing road.
The Redways and the A5 corridor were of course part of the initial design of the new town, its rather more difficult to retrofit without either widespread demolition or building something like the Westway which would politically be unacceptable and financially more expensive than a new D2 road. The Redways are of course routes for non motorised traffic and are neither suitable for nor available for use as motor roads.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/dgeezer/42923055912

I have driven the A421 through Milton Keynes many times. The roads is extensively used by local traffic, in fact it is the source of much of the traffic and you are NOT talking about a couple of GSJ's. discounting those at Magna Park there are 12 major at grade junctions on the route as well as the A5 flyover. There is no way you replace all of these by GSJ's. Even if you replaced half of them, closed the others and upgraded the road to D4 the amount of weaving would be horrific and you would be making the cardinal error of mixing through and local traffic. We all remember how that worked along the old A14.

Once you get to the A5 closure of the roundabouts would require a diversion of at least 2 miles from the existing route or you would need a very large new viaduct over the A5.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.01250 ... authuser=0

If you believe the scale of disruption this would involve is acceptable I have the deeds to a Bridge across the East River between Brooklyn and New York you may be interested in buying
User avatar
KeithW
Member
Posts: 19205
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 13:25
Location: Marton-In-Cleveland North Yorks

Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by KeithW »

jackal wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 13:11
EWR between Oxford and Bedford uses disused or freight lines. Given this I don't think it would be practical to put EWR in the expressway central reservation. Certainly a less extreme co-location, as HE have suggested, may be appropriate.
Indeed but if you are driving a new transport corridor from Oxford to Cambridge it would not be impossible to incorporate a twin track railway into the scheme as was done with CA24 and of course there is no route as yet for the rail link between Bedford and Cambridge. Its also worth recalling that the railway line into Bedford passes over the A421.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.10689 ... authuser=0

It may not be practical then and almost certainly is not now but in many ways an new railway north of the A421/A428/A14 Cambridge northern bypass would seem to have been an opportunity to both carry the EWR freight and passengers from Bedford, St Neots and Cambourne to Cambridge developments such as Orchard Park and the Science Park.

What happened instead is that the A14, EWR and Oxford Cambridge Expressway projects were all pursued in isolation.
camflyer
Member
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 21:57

Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by camflyer »

Work is being "paused": https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-51836827

Hope that this doesn't mean the A428/Black Cat work is being put on hold
User avatar
jackal
Member
Posts: 7549
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 23:33
Location: M6

Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by jackal »

camflyer wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 09:53Hope that this doesn't mean the A428/Black Cat work is being put on hold
It's confirmed for RIS2.
User avatar
KeithW
Member
Posts: 19205
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 13:25
Location: Marton-In-Cleveland North Yorks

Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by KeithW »

jackal wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 09:57
camflyer wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 09:53Hope that this doesn't mean the A428/Black Cat work is being put on hold
It's confirmed for RIS2.
Its a separate scheme to the Oxford Cambridge Expressway, the remaining S2 section of the A428 is not fit for purpose and has a high number of serious accidents. I used to have to use this junction which was bl**dy dangerous, I saw the aftermath of several nasty accidents.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.56986 ... 6656?hl=en

A flat tee junction with a strategic road with high speed traffic is not a good idea.

In addition the levels of congestion at the Caxton Gibbet roundabout are high and growing especially given the amount of residential development happening in Godmanchester and St Neots adding even more traffic. Throw into the mix the new commercial developments planned around Caxton Gibbet and you are into 'something must be done' territory.
camflyer
Member
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 21:57

Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by camflyer »

KeithW wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:13
jackal wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 09:57
camflyer wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 09:53Hope that this doesn't mean the A428/Black Cat work is being put on hold
It's confirmed for RIS2.
Its a separate scheme to the Oxford Cambridge Expressway, the remaining S2 section of the A428 is not fit for purpose and has a high number of serious accidents. I used to have to use this junction which was bl**dy dangerous, I saw the aftermath of several nasty accidents.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.56986 ... 6656?hl=en
Err.. nice view of a residential street in Middlesbrough.
User avatar
KeithW
Member
Posts: 19205
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 13:25
Location: Marton-In-Cleveland North Yorks

Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by KeithW »

camflyer wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 21:43
KeithW wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:13
jackal wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 09:57
It's confirmed for RIS2.
Its a separate scheme to the Oxford Cambridge Expressway, the remaining S2 section of the A428 is not fit for purpose and has a high number of serious accidents. I used to have to use this junction which was bl**dy dangerous, I saw the aftermath of several nasty accidents.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.56986 ... 6656?hl=en
Err.. nice view of a residential street in Middlesbrough.

Oops try this
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.22195 ... 6656?hl=en
marconaf
Member
Posts: 290
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2018 14:42

Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by marconaf »

So what happened to the suggestion of using the corridor just to the south of MK? Which seemed to have been left empty.

I agree trying to use the A421 through MK would be insane - I drive it weekly (when I dont go xcountry through Woburn and N of Leighton Buzzard because of constant roundabout stop-start boringness!).

On another note, given Aylesbury (actually Bucks as it becomes a single authority) have plans for “link roads” that will encircle the town eventually (c.2030?+) albeit at grade and probably S2 - how might the A41 be extended up to the OxCam?

I still think EWR needs an interchange station where it crosses HS2 to tie everything in. We aren’t using the full potential of EWR at all, yet as a reopening it is reasonably easy (west/central sections, east not so much) - and integrating OxCam with HS2, EWR (Chiltern Aylesbury line?) would offer the entire Ox-Cam arc easy access to the rest of the country.

It’s also a bit smarter than just another road scheme which much as I like it, I question whether it stands on its own in an era where whilst I think private vehicles should and will remain dominant - this is something we can do both to replace journeys and open up new ones.
User avatar
Dadge
Member
Posts: 1024
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2003 17:13
Location: Birmingham, England
Contact:

Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by Dadge »

camflyer wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 09:53 Work is being "paused": https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-51836827

Hope that this doesn't mean the A428/Black Cat work is being put on hold
Meanwhile the go-ahead has been given for the new Cambridge South rail station as part of the new Cambridge-Oxford rail line.
User avatar
roadtester
Member
Posts: 31475
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 18:05
Location: Cambridgeshire

Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by roadtester »

Dadge wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 00:20
camflyer wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 09:53 Work is being "paused": https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-51836827

Hope that this doesn't mean the A428/Black Cat work is being put on hold
Meanwhile the go-ahead has been given for the new Cambridge South rail station as part of the new Cambridge-Oxford rail line.
Local news article here:

https://www.cambridgeindependent.co.uk/ ... n-9102318/

With the bio-medical campus developing so quickly, this will make a huge difference.
Electrophorus Electricus

Check out #davidsdailycar on Mastodon
camflyer
Member
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 21:57

Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by camflyer »

marconaf wrote: Fri Mar 13, 2020 23:33 I still think EWR needs an interchange station where it crosses HS2 to tie everything in. We aren’t using the full potential of EWR at all, yet as a reopening it is reasonably easy (west/central sections, east not so much) - and integrating OxCam with HS2, EWR (Chiltern Aylesbury line?) would offer the entire Ox-Cam arc easy access to the rest of the country.
The problem is that EWR crosses HS2 near Calvert which is pretty much in the middle of nowhere. HS2 and EWR have been talking to each other to coordinate engineering works but there is no suggestion of any interchange station.
ColinB
Member
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2019 14:51

Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by ColinB »

But if they go ahead with the development of the Oxford Cambridge arc. Several new towns and a new city between Bicester and MK. The new city would have to be close to the HS2 EWR crossing point.
mikehindsonevans
Member
Posts: 1359
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:44
Location: Cheshire, but working week time in Cambridge

Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by mikehindsonevans »

camflyer wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:11
marconaf wrote: Fri Mar 13, 2020 23:33 I still think EWR needs an interchange station where it crosses HS2 to tie everything in. We aren’t using the full potential of EWR at all, yet as a reopening it is reasonably easy (west/central sections, east not so much) - and integrating OxCam with HS2, EWR (Chiltern Aylesbury line?) would offer the entire Ox-Cam arc easy access to the rest of the country.
The problem is that EWR crosses HS2 near Calvert which is pretty much in the middle of nowhere. HS2 and EWR have been talking to each other to coordinate engineering works but there is no suggestion of any interchange station.
It is "in the middle of nowhere* at the moment. This allows time - and space- for an interchange to be designed and built, or for" passive provision" to be made.

I just hope that it is a better passive provision than that provided at Catthorpe when the M1 ploughed northwards Lutterworth all those decades back...
Mike Hindson-Evans.
Never argue with a conspiracy theorist.
They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
M5Lenzar
Banned
Posts: 4477
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2005 14:39

Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by M5Lenzar »

mikehindsonevans wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 21:35 I just hope that it is a better passive provision than that provided at Catthorpe when the M1 ploughed northwards Lutterworth all those decades back...
There wasn't any inkling that another road would ever connect there, to be fair.
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35755
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: Oxford to Cambridge expressway

Post by Bryn666 »

M5Lenzar wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 21:55
mikehindsonevans wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 21:35 I just hope that it is a better passive provision than that provided at Catthorpe when the M1 ploughed northwards Lutterworth all those decades back...
There wasn't any inkling that another road would ever connect there, to be fair.
Correct - when the M6 was built here the main English freight ports were still London and Liverpool. The idea that Felixstowe and Tilbury would take over was still some way off. Containerisation is the only reason the A13 and A14 exist as they do today.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Post Reply