M56 new Junction 11a

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jackal
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M56 new Junction 11a

Post by jackal »

There's an information event about this on 6 Sep, prior to consultation 'later in the year'. Should be freeflow but wouldn't put money on it.

http://www.highways.gov.uk/roads/road-p ... ction-11a/
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Re: M56 new Junction 11a

Post by Truvelo »

I'm surprised there were never any proposals for a decent link between the M56 and the Runcorn Expressways when they were first built.
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Re: M56 new Junction 11a

Post by Bryn666 »

J11A presumably is intended to link the M56, Central Expressway, and the Mersey Gateway Bridge.

Sounds like a good idea to me. Ideally a simple fork off the M56 would be best, with connection to the unfinished roundabout GSJ at the end of the current expressway.
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Re: M56 new Junction 11a

Post by jackal »

Bryn666 wrote:J11A presumably is intended to link the M56, Central Expressway, and the Mersey Gateway Bridge.

Sounds like a good idea to me. Ideally a simple fork off the M56 would be best, with connection to the unfinished roundabout GSJ at the end of the current expressway.
This can certainly be done for the onslip but there's development in the way of where the offslip would've diverged. It would be possible to squeeze a freeflow offslip in further south but I expect they'll just bodge it into a half dumbbell or something.

A curiosity of the Gateway project is that the Central Expressway mainline, which previously ran down the Southern Expressway to the J11a site, is being diverted down the Weston Link as shown here, a change that doesn't really make sense with J11a presumably intended to become the main access from the M56 East.
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Re: M56 new Junction 11a

Post by PeterA5145 »

jackal wrote:A curiosity of the Gateway project is that the Central Expressway mainline, which previously ran down the Southern Expressway to the J11a site, is being diverted down the Weston Link as shown here, a change that doesn't really make sense with J11a presumably intended to become the main access from the M56 East.
I'm pretty sure that traffic counts will show a lot more traffic approaching the bridge on the M56 from the west rather than from the east. Traffic from the east heading for central Liverpool or even north Widnes has the alternative of going over Thelwall and using the M62.
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Re: M56 new Junction 11a

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PeterA5145 wrote:
jackal wrote:A curiosity of the Gateway project is that the Central Expressway mainline, which previously ran down the Southern Expressway to the J11a site, is being diverted down the Weston Link as shown here, a change that doesn't really make sense with J11a presumably intended to become the main access from the M56 East.
I'm pretty sure that traffic counts will show a lot more traffic approaching the bridge on the M56 from the west rather than from the east. Traffic from the east heading for central Liverpool or even north Widnes has the alternative of going over Thelwall and using the M62.
Perhaps, but the Central Expressway will not only be used for bridge traffic. I expect the majority of M56<->Runcorn traffic on it will be to/from the M56E, given M56W traffic would largely use the Weston Point Expressway instead.

I believe the real reason the mainline at the Central/Southern/Weston Link GSJ is being changed is that the traffic modelling assumed pre-J11a flows. Funding for J11a was only announced in late 2014, i.e. after construction on the Gateway project started.
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Re: M56 new Junction 11a

Post by Bryn666 »

To be fair the new interchange between the Weston Link and Central Expressway is not going to be underpowered either way you look at it. It's far superior to the trumpet it replaces and also introdices CD lanes.
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Re: M56 new Junction 11a

Post by Hugo Nebula »

Truvelo wrote:I'm surprised there were never any proposals for a decent link between the M56 and the Runcorn Expressways when they were first built.
There were plans for a link, not necessarily direct.

The original expressways were meant to continue eastwards from the existing Murdishaw roundabout and continue up towards what is now Daresbury Expressway at the junction for Windmill Hill to close the loop. Meanwhile there would have been a link road from the M56 Junction 10 at what is now the Daresbury Business Park entrance to a GS roundabout on the expressway.
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Re: M56 new Junction 11a

Post by JF2309 »

Now would be the ideal time to renumber the junctions so that J13 is no longer missing.
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Re: M56 new Junction 11a

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Hugo Nebula wrote:Meanwhile there would have been a link road from the M56 Junction 10 at what is now the Daresbury Business Park entrance to a GS roundabout on the expressway.
I can go one better, a trumpet instead. There are different layouts for the junction with the expressway. Some plans had it as an at-grade roundabout as traffic on the eastern side of the expressway was predicted to be lower.

The problem with new towns in general is the expressways were designed to move traffic within the town but not to connect the town to the outside world. I believe this was a mistake.
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Re: M56 new Junction 11a

Post by wrinkly »

Was something complicated once proposed where the Southern Expressway carriageways split over Beechwood Avenue?

Again a bit further east they seem to splay more than the minimum needed for future completion of the incomplete GSJ with Murdishaw Ave.
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Re: M56 new Junction 11a

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I thought that was just because of the pylons myself, or perhaps poor ground conditions.
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Re: M56 new Junction 11a

Post by PeterA5145 »

Truvelo wrote:The problem with new towns in general is the expressways were designed to move traffic within the town but not to connect the town to the outside world. I believe this was a mistake.
It was assumed that most new town residents would work within the towns, which didn't turn out to be the case.

Runcorn has never had a decent link to the M56 to the east - it has always involved either going out of your way or going through Preston Brook village.
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Re: M56 new Junction 11a

Post by wrinkly »

There are descriptions of the two options in a new press release:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/info ... nction-11a

No doubt plans will appear on 6 Sep.
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Re: M56 new Junction 11a

Post by Nicholas »

Would it not make sense to renumber J12 to J13 and call the new juntion J12?
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Re: M56 new Junction 11a

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wrinkly wrote:There are descriptions of the two options in a new press release:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/info ... nction-11a

No doubt plans will appear on 6 Sep.
It sounds like both options will have a westbound off-slip leading to a new roundabout on the south side of the M56, and the difference between the two is that one option will have the eastbound on-slip starting on the Southern Expressway roundabout and the other will fly over it using the existing provision for a flyover.
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Re: M56 new Junction 11a

Post by si404 »

Nicholas wrote:Would it not make sense to renumber J12 to J13 and call the new juntion J12?
When have we ever done something sensible like that? Oh wait, when the M60 was created and J14, 14A and 15 of the M62 became J14, 15 and 16 of the M60. Sound the alarms - there's precedent!
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Re: M56 new Junction 11a

Post by jackal »

It says one option is to the east of the WCML, the other to the west. As I'm not familiar with rail terminology I'm not entirely sure if they mean the Liverpool branch or the WCML proper. The natural reading would be WCML proper but that's further away from the expected site of the junction and would mean the 'east' option for the new junction will overlap with J11, requiring either braiding (unlikely) or slip closures (with replacement west-facers). So maybe they mean the branch?
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Re: M56 new Junction 11a

Post by wrinkly »

In rail circles both broad and narrow conventions exist for naming the WCML; my impression is that the broad one is gaining ground.
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Re: M56 new Junction 11a

Post by PeterA5145 »

I popped along to have a look at this earlier today. There weren't any handouts available, but they said the maps would be up on the website either today or tomorrow.

Both options are rather inelegant and come across as a bit of a dog's dinner, although I suppose they are constrained by land ownership issues and the existing development patterns. The "Eastern" option, which looks cheaper and I suspect is the one they will go for, turns the existing roundabout into a hamburger, with a slip continuing directly on to the eastbound M56, although the opposite movement comes off at a mini-roundabout and uses the existing bridge to reach the southern entrance to the roundabout.

The "Western" option involves building a new roundabout a couple of hundred yards west of the existing one, with a new link road then running south under the railway line to a new roundabout junction on the motorway. This looks more expensive and requires more land take, and involves negotiating two or even three roundabouts for every movement.

Both include full access to the M56 to the west as well as the east. A preferred option will be announced next Spring with completion planned for 2021.

I said on the comment form that it was a pity they couldn't use the provision for grade separation to give free-flow access to and from the M56 to the east :|
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