"Perth Transport Futures"

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Ronnie
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Re: "Perth Transport Futures"

Post by Ronnie »

A signalised swallow roundabout will be a horrible, horrible experience. And it’ll push a lot of traffic onto the Low Carse Road.
Nwallace
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Re: "Perth Transport Futures"

Post by Nwallace »

Given the difficulty I've had getting across to the Denhead of Gray road on a number of occasions in both the car and on the bike it's hardly a surprise with a new town going in there that the Roundabout needs to be replaced.

If getting onto the Swallow proved to be problematic then given the size of the development all hell would break loose in Liff and on Gourdie brae and Myrekirk as people tried to avoid it. The site's now a bit too hemed in for a GSJ I reckon.
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novaecosse
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Re: "Perth Transport Futures"

Post by novaecosse »

Burns wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 20:31
novaecosse wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 20:08 You’ll hate me for saying this, but I’d rather it was redesigned as a signalised staggered junction and not attempt to tack signals onto the roundabout.
The access to Swallow Hotel and the Denhead of Gray Road wasn’t always where it is now. It was realigned to meet Swallow Roundabout.
That's interesting to note. It's quite obvious when you look at the curve on the map. After that, I was looking at ways you could grade separate Swallow by putting the Denhead of Gray road back on its original alignment to take it out the equation. My initial thoughts would to link it via local roads where it could join the A90 at Myrekirk but once I started looking more closely at how to fit in a simple fork for the A85, I realised half a grade separated junction already exists and I've come up with a design that looks to me as if it'd be cost-effective and generally keep conflicting flows to a minimum. Take a look and let me know what you think.
Given the drop in elevation down to Swallow Roundabout, and back up the other side, that’s probably do-able.
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Hagbard
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Re: "Perth Transport Futures"

Post by Hagbard »

rileyrob wrote: Tue Oct 23, 2018 21:18
Glen wrote: Tue Oct 23, 2018 20:36
rileyrob wrote: Tue Oct 23, 2018 08:41 St. Johnstone Interchange
Is that a "Bob name", like such classics as "Asda Roundabout"?
I've only ever heard it referred to as Crieff Road Junction.
it is possible, but I think I did find some corroboration for the name in the past, either on the Bear or P&K website.
The roundabout that used to serve the A9 southbound has been called Newhouse Roundabout, and I think that the junction as a whole was St Johnstone. One of the problems is that the roundabout between the A85 and A912 is also referred to as Crieff Road roundabout, so while the A9 junction may be commonly known as Crieff Road Junction, by the public, I think it also has an official name to avoid confusion.
Having said all of that, none of the transport futures site seems to give the junction any name at all (on a quick look anyway).
I've never heard it called the St. Johnstone Interchange either, and I'm a Saints fan. :D
The Wiki is also incorrect in that it was not built as part of the Perth bypass, it was originally just a flyover with the slip roads added later.

From the SABRE Wiki: St. Johnstone Interchange :


St. Johnstone Interchange is the connection between the A85 and A9 Perth Bypass to the west of the city. Both are busy routes, the A9 carrying almost all of the traffic heading north to the North Highlands, Inverness and Moray from the central belt, whilst the A85 connects Perth with the West Highlands, via Strathearn. It is therefore a Grade Separated Junction, with the dual carriageway A9 passing under the A85. The junction was originally built when the

... Read More
Nwallace
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Re: "Perth Transport Futures"

Post by Nwallace »

novaecosse wrote: Mon Jan 21, 2019 21:42
Burns wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 20:31
novaecosse wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 20:08 You’ll hate me for saying this, but I’d rather it was redesigned as a signalised staggered junction and not attempt to tack signals onto the roundabout.
The access to Swallow Hotel and the Denhead of Gray Road wasn’t always where it is now. It was realigned to meet Swallow Roundabout.
That's interesting to note. It's quite obvious when you look at the curve on the map. After that, I was looking at ways you could grade separate Swallow by putting the Denhead of Gray road back on its original alignment to take it out the equation. My initial thoughts would to link it via local roads where it could join the A90 at Myrekirk but once I started looking more closely at how to fit in a simple fork for the A85, I realised half a grade separated junction already exists and I've come up with a design that looks to me as if it'd be cost-effective and generally keep conflicting flows to a minimum. Take a look and let me know what you think.
Given the drop in elevation down to Swallow Roundabout, and back up the other side, that’s probably do-able.
The problem I see with that design is the route from the Invergowrie Bypass onto the A90, it'll feel faster and more direct to drive through Invergowrie...
Just as it does at present when there's queueing traffic at the circle.
Also the people who park on the Bullionfield circle will complain about not having anywhere to abandon their vehicles.
B9127
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Re: "Perth Transport Futures"

Post by B9127 »

The building in the Tech Park I believe is to be demolished - I was in it a couple of years ago and the interior was trashed and part of it was being used as a Men's Shed - that would give a bit more scope for a junction
Motorways travelled 2019 - M90 - M9 - M80 - M8 -M77 - M73 -A74(M) -M6-M42-M40 -A404(M) - M4 - M5 -M50 -M56 much better so far than last year
paully
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Re: "Perth Transport Futures"

Post by paully »

Not directly linked to this, but not worth starting a new thread about!

Perth and Kinross Council are looking to carry out "improvements" to most of the main roads into Perth, starting with the A912 Dunkeld Road which will be reduced from D2 to S2 along the stretch past Asda, and from S2+1 to S2 nearer the city centre so that they can add cycle lanes. I'm all for good cycling infrastructure, but these plans are horrendous. You can view and comment on the plans at:
https://activeperthproposals.commonplace.is
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Berk
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Re: "Perth Transport Futures"

Post by Berk »

paully wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 22:36 Not directly linked to this, but not worth starting a new thread about!

Perth and Kinross Council are looking to carry out "improvements" to most of the main roads into Perth, starting with the A912 Dunkeld Road which will be reduced from D2 to S2 along the stretch past Asda, and from S2+1 to S2 nearer the city centre so that they can add cycle lanes. I'm all for good cycling infrastructure, but these plans are horrendous. You can view and comment on the plans at:
https://activeperthproposals.commonplace.is
Interesting. What makes you come to that conclusion?? How does it differ from Arbroath, for example??
paully
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Re: "Perth Transport Futures"

Post by paully »

Berk wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 22:46
paully wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 22:36 Not directly linked to this, but not worth starting a new thread about!

Perth and Kinross Council are looking to carry out "improvements" to most of the main roads into Perth, starting with the A912 Dunkeld Road which will be reduced from D2 to S2 along the stretch past Asda, and from S2+1 to S2 nearer the city centre so that they can add cycle lanes. I'm all for good cycling infrastructure, but these plans are horrendous. You can view and comment on the plans at:
https://activeperthproposals.commonplace.is
Interesting. What makes you come to that conclusion?? How does it differ from Arbroath, for example??
The section of the A92 in Arbroath that they propose to single is effectively an inner ring road, carrying mainly local traffic and a small amount of traffic heading from (say) Dundee to Montrose. Traffic levels are not that high and the road is not prone to congestion. Dunkeld Road in Perth is very different - it's a radial route into the City Centre, which is already busy at peak times and with several thousand homes planned at Bertha Park, Luncarty South and Huntingtowerfield over the next few years (all of which will use this as the main route into the centre) traffic levels will increase significantly. At peak times, the road is already clogged from the A9 to the Bute Drive junction, and from the Crieff Road junction to the Inner Ring Road. The proposed plans will reduce capacity on these sections. The Auld Bond Road junction (exit from SSE headquarters and main road into the Tulloch housing area) is already clogged at peak times even with 2 lanes towards the Dunkeld Road, now this is being reduced to a single lane and they haven't even added any capacity for cyclists here. I could go on all day about how bad this plan is but you get my drift!
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Euan
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Re: "Perth Transport Futures"

Post by Euan »

Something I have noticed recently is that the plans for the new link road north of Perth have appeared on the OS 50k map layer, along with the new B9993.
E-roads, M-roads, A-roads, N-roads, B-roads, R-roads, C-roads, L-roads, U-roads, footpaths
Potholes ate my car
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Re: "Perth Transport Futures"

Post by Potholes ate my car »

paully wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 23:33
Berk wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 22:46
paully wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 22:36 Not directly linked to this, but not worth starting a new thread about!

Perth and Kinross Council are looking to carry out "improvements" to most of the main roads into Perth, starting with the A912 Dunkeld Road which will be reduced from D2 to S2 along the stretch past Asda, and from S2+1 to S2 nearer the city centre so that they can add cycle lanes. I'm all for good cycling infrastructure, but these plans are horrendous. You can view and comment on the plans at:
https://activeperthproposals.commonplace.is
Interesting. What makes you come to that conclusion?? How does it differ from Arbroath, for example??
The section of the A92 in Arbroath that they propose to single is effectively an inner ring road, carrying mainly local traffic and a small amount of traffic heading from (say) Dundee to Montrose. Traffic levels are not that high and the road is not prone to congestion. Dunkeld Road in Perth is very different - it's a radial route into the City Centre, which is already busy at peak times and with several thousand homes planned at Bertha Park, Luncarty South and Huntingtowerfield over the next few years (all of which will use this as the main route into the centre) traffic levels will increase significantly. At peak times, the road is already clogged from the A9 to the Bute Drive junction, and from the Crieff Road junction to the Inner Ring Road. The proposed plans will reduce capacity on these sections. The Auld Bond Road junction (exit from SSE headquarters and main road into the Tulloch housing area) is already clogged at peak times even with 2 lanes towards the Dunkeld Road, now this is being reduced to a single lane and they haven't even added any capacity for cyclists here. I could go on all day about how bad this plan is but you get my drift!
Of these car journeys being made, what percentage could potentially be made by bike instead, given improved cycling infrastructure? Switching short journeys from car to bike (or foot) is something which is encouraged to reduce carbon emissions.
paully
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Re: "Perth Transport Futures"

Post by paully »

Potholes ate my car wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 09:09
paully wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 23:33
Berk wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 22:46 Interesting. What makes you come to that conclusion?? How does it differ from Arbroath, for example??
The section of the A92 in Arbroath that they propose to single is effectively an inner ring road, carrying mainly local traffic and a small amount of traffic heading from (say) Dundee to Montrose. Traffic levels are not that high and the road is not prone to congestion. Dunkeld Road in Perth is very different - it's a radial route into the City Centre, which is already busy at peak times and with several thousand homes planned at Bertha Park, Luncarty South and Huntingtowerfield over the next few years (all of which will use this as the main route into the centre) traffic levels will increase significantly. At peak times, the road is already clogged from the A9 to the Bute Drive junction, and from the Crieff Road junction to the Inner Ring Road. The proposed plans will reduce capacity on these sections. The Auld Bond Road junction (exit from SSE headquarters and main road into the Tulloch housing area) is already clogged at peak times even with 2 lanes towards the Dunkeld Road, now this is being reduced to a single lane and they haven't even added any capacity for cyclists here. I could go on all day about how bad this plan is but you get my drift!
Of these car journeys being made, what percentage could potentially be made by bike instead, given improved cycling infrastructure? Switching short journeys from car to bike (or foot) is something which is encouraged to reduce carbon emissions.
I don't disagree that a percentage of these journeys could be made on bike instead, but even as a reasonably keen cyclist over the summer months I still rely on a car because my wife doesn't keep well (and can't cycle) and I have three children under 10. Public transport is not good enough that it can be deemed a viable alternative.

The area around Perth is also largely rural, and this is the main road into Perth from Bankfoot/Luncarty/Dunkeld/Pitlochry/Blair Atholl (for the residents of these places, Perth is the nearest place with a proper supermarket and any sort of services). The other issue is that there is already a decent traffic-free route from Inveralmond along the riverside into the centre of Perth, which (albeit longer) is a much prettier route than battling against traffic. There are parallel alternative routes, particularly near the centre, that could easily have a cycle route added without compromising traffic flows.
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Berk
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Re: "Perth Transport Futures"

Post by Berk »

I feel the question of modal shift and whether people should consider using it almost always ignores the length of local journeys people are trying to undertake.

A “local” commute to work/the shops/the bank/the station could easily be 10 miles plus. Most of those local facilities have either been removed or closed in more rural settlements. Many people in that situation may also have to drive part of the journey across rural or remote S1/S2 roads.

Trying to reduce the capacity of an urban road, because you’re trying to encourage modal shift over a 2-mile radius just ignores the wider number of people who travel to that shopping/employment centre and forces them to sit in stationary traffic, adding to pollution and contributing to the very problem planners are claiming to fix.

Let’s be clear - rural bus services are in decline, and will never be coming back. And can you really expect people on Scottish villages to cycle up and down peaks just to get to their nearest town?? Or make what was a 30-minute journey into an hour each way?? Ridiculous.
Potholes ate my car
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Re: "Perth Transport Futures"

Post by Potholes ate my car »

I completely understand that for a lot of people, in varying circumstances, cycling is not an option. I did specify *short* journeys in my question; I was thinking more of people living in the planned and existing houses mentioned in paully's post. I don't really know Perth myself as I usually go straight past it on the A9, but I agree that if there are alternative routes to the main road, that would be a better option for cycling provision from a driver's and cyclist's point of view.
B9127
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Re: "Perth Transport Futures"

Post by B9127 »

Noticed in the Courier the CPO's for the realignment of the A9 and the new road (A94?) to Scone
Motorways travelled 2019 - M90 - M9 - M80 - M8 -M77 - M73 -A74(M) -M6-M42-M40 -A404(M) - M4 - M5 -M50 -M56 much better so far than last year
green light
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Re: "Perth Transport Futures"

Post by green light »

Apologies for dragging this old thread up, but it seems an appropriate place to ask my question:

Is there or has there ever been a plan to replace the Inveralmond and Broxden roundabouts with proper junctions? To me they seem out of place on main roads or are they sufficient like Cleanhill roundabout at the end of the AWPR?
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Re: "Perth Transport Futures"

Post by orudge »

They were both listed in the STPR back in 2008 or so, along with the Keir roundabout. More recently, I think there was a proposal for Broxden to be grade separated as part of the Perth city deal (or whatever it became). I don’t recall hearing much about it recently though, and nothing about the other two.
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wrinkly
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Re: "Perth Transport Futures"

Post by wrinkly »

Inveralmond has been allowed to be boxed in by subsequent development so would be difficult to do now. They would need to be a bit ruthless.
Ronnie
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Re: "Perth Transport Futures"

Post by Ronnie »

Broxden desperately needs sorted out.
paully
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Re: "Perth Transport Futures"

Post by paully »

orudge wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 22:15 They were both listed in the STPR back in 2008 or so, along with the Keir roundabout. More recently, I think there was a proposal for Broxden to be grade separated as part of the Perth city deal (or whatever it became). I don’t recall hearing much about it recently though, and nothing about the other two.
There was a plan for development on the North-West side of Broxden, which made no provision for upgrading the roundabout and also left no space for future improvements. https://www.perthwest.com/
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